Friday, 9 April 2010

Furtherance to discussion with Kris...


"Heya, it's Kris here.  So BA was my 3rd edition army that I stopped playing when they got a PDF codex and Vulkan came out.  Been playing Vulkan marines since the current marine book came out so my collection reflects this currently.  The army is going to get paint stripped so popping some arms off and whatnot is more than likely to happen.  Also I can pretty much put anything into any other pattern,  MM/HF speeders to typhoons, dakka preds to ac/las ones, etc.

At my disposal I have:

2 librarians

a chaplain

various captain models

40-50 tactical/assault marines

3 rhino/razorbacks

4 predator's with interchangeable weapons

3 mm/hf speeders

2 typhoons

3 plastic dreads

10 assault terminators

2 crusaders, 1 redeemer, 1 godhammer LR

and today i bought 2 boxes of death co and a command squad box for bits/extra models and 
I can pick up a few things here and there as needed as well..  Already threw together a sanguinary priest with the parts.  Debating if I want to assemble them as actual Death Co or just assault marines.  Could also spruce them up as vanguard.  I know a lot of people are hating on death co but I think with a reclussiarch in a raider they are a pretty dead hard unit.  Rage is a downside but can be worked around with smart play and proper application of firepower to units that can/are leading them around.  Also giving the chappy an infernus pistol helps them deal with armor trying to lead them around.

I've just pretty much been torn on how I want to run the list.  at 1850 I'm thinking a LRC with either assault termies or DC, 2 rhinos with assault squads, maybe a razorback or 2 with small squads and then pred's and typhoons for fire support, maybe a libby dread."

Well, first thing's first - I don't truly rate the Captain too highly.  Primary reason, is the lack of Artificer Armour as a option...I mean, REALLY?  The artists and artisans of the most perfection-obsessed chapter in the Imperium can't be bothered to craft a few extra suits of Arti Armour for Captains?  Particularly odd given that Sang Guard get them... 

So, they're out.  A Reclusiarch, eh? Well, that's what you want in the list, though if you don't mind I'm not writing another BA Raider list :p  I'm not a real fan of the DC either, but I can certainly work them into a list, not an issue.

The BA struggle for support units, because the basic stuff doesn't come cheap.  It doesn't help, of course, that they put Preds and dreads in the same slot, since the Nilla support frequently comes form both elements.  Given this, let's start with what you have.

Rifleman - 120

Rifleman - 120

Rifleman - 120

Land Speeder Squadron: - 180
Land Speeder; w/ Typhoon, Heavy Bolter
Land Speeder; w/ Typhoon, Heavy Bolter

Okay, we've used up all our HS slots :( and a FA...but we've got a pretty solid load of S7+ fire coming out every turn.  All for under 600 points too, which is pretty nice.  The glaring flaw with taking this configuration is the complete lack of Multi-Meltas.  We are going to have to find our Melta from other places on the FoC then - but this is a common problem with BA lists, and so not overly a concern at this stage.  That said, let's put some in now.  BUT WAIT! You cry - we don't know how this army is going to even run! Well...we kinda do.  See, JP armies don't use support elements.  And, while the DC ARE usable as a JP force, they run to 335 points each without even taking additional weapons, sooooo - Rhinos it is.  Problem is, I reckon this list will require you getting a new Rhino when written.  Good news though, I'm sure you will be able to proxy a Predator for a Rhino in the short term, while deciding why/how you'll edit/scrap the list I'm writing! ;)

Anyway, since we're taking a DC, we need another 'Hammer' unit to muddle enemy Target Priority.  I'm thinking Honour Guard, to get the much needed Melta.  

Honour Guard; w/ 3 Meltaguns, Blood Champion, Sanguinary Novitiate, Rhino [Extra Armour] - 230

Okay, now, to get them legally, we need an HQ...

Reclusiarch; w/ Infernus Pistol - 145

Note, we NEED the Infernus Pistol.  Lack of adequate Melta could be crippling to this list, and we're just going to have to hope that the Furiously Charging members of the squads are sufficient to get through Hordes.  'Luckily' the support elements I chose earlier, rather than the AC/LC Preds that I considered (and you originally mentioned) have sufficient duality to retain utility against Hordes.  ;)

Obviously, the Reccy goes into a Rhino.  Oh, fyi, the Extra Armour above is partly because getting the squads close is literally life-or-death for them...but also to make them a tougher looking target.  That's why this one doesn't get the same treatment.  Death Company then:

Death Company:
8 Death Company; w/ Thunder Hammer, Infernus Pistol, Power Weapon, Power Fist, Rhino - 295

OUCH!!!! Wow, that's an expensive unit.  Hmmm.  Okay, so far (540+295+145+230) 1210 spent.  We still have a pile of Troops left (including one Mandatory) and 3 Elites, along with 1 HQ and 2 FA.  We have sufficient support fire - and technically enough Melta weapons.  Though, frankly, I'm not happy with them...Plus, the Reclusiarch doesn't get FnP.  He will be easy for the foe to single out of the DC and, while the DC remain as tough, the extra Initiative etc is a great boon.  Ideally, we would squeeze a Sang Priest into the squad, for a 'cheap' extra Infernus.

Well...let's come back to it.  Need another Troops first - really, we need two.  

Assault Squad; w/ 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist, Rhino [Extra Armour] - 265

Well, two of those is another 530 points.  Goddamn.  That's really us for 1850.  Four Rhinos, 3 Dreadnoughts, and a Land Speeder squadron.  See now why I skipped the Raider though?  This Codex suffers at lower points, in that it almost becomes mono-build - Jump packers only.  I like the all-JP list, but being FORCED to play it?  No thanks.

Honestly, I think this is worth playtesting.  It will look pretty disappointing, but it's hard to make a definitive call on DC without playing them, and I haven't.  I think you're right that they're tough, and should be able to munch most things they hit okay - but the loss of Rending REALLY hurts them.  that's why the pic is there...either this army will be a kick in the crotch to try and use, or a kick for the foe.  I prefer 'knife to the spleen' armies, such as the 2k non-DC variant of this list I will be putting up next week sometime (basically, a Rhino Rush)...this army becomes a bit 'Rocky Road' with the simple fact that the DC are such a huge natural threat.  Fortunately, the Honour Guard are really a little more dangerous to Mech armies, and the Assault Marines are eminently capable of busting armour too.  Never forget that you can fire out the top hatch with dual Meltas - and only the HG have more than 2 Meltas!  (Possible edit - drop the 3rd HG Melta in exchange for a 9th DC?)

The support elements SHOULD be suppressing at least 2 Targets a turn, and often 3, allowing the Fast Rhinos to get close enough to get double-dice, and tear them a new one.  This army seems to be one that could work.  It's not for me (again, too rock-like) but it has pretty solid support and ability to take down Hordes, no doubt.  Dreads that suffer Red thirst and get FC would also be a nasty counter-charge unit, and an amusing surprise for the foe!

Well - there's my thoughts on your wish for DC. Let me know what you think! :)
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