In my article below, Chumby made the following comment:"And hey, let them benefit from their armor, it's not like they don't pay for it."
So, I thought we should have a little look at this claim, see to what extent it's the case...
For a baseline, we shall start with Imperial Guard, since they're the best balanced statline, other than of course Marines themselves. They're cheap, too - and enough things have IG statlines that we can adequately compare points costs and get a decent idea of what exactly Marines do or do not get for free.
A basic Guardsman, as we know, costs 5 points, give or take. Technically, they don't actually, as that would make the Sergeants free in their squads, but I know most people probably don't agree with me in thinking of it that way...either way, let's just assume that 5 points is a fair cost for 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7/5+ and a Lasgun.
Well, Marines have a point better in nearly all those stats barring Save, so that's a total of 6 stat upgrades. If we price these at a point apiece, which is probably a little cheap, our Marine is up to 11 points...not bad, huh? So, what about equipment? Well, the Marine has a Bolt Pistol, a Bolter, Frags, Kraks - and this is compared to a Lasgun and Frags - so it's going to be at LEAST 3 points worth of gear. More accurately, a Bolt Pistol is 2 points for a guardsman who has the option, a Bolter commonly 3 points, and Kraks manage to squeeze in at one each - so Marines underpay, at best.
What else? Marines start off with Combat Squads, Combat Tactics and ATSKNF, unless from some variant Codex, but it's a fairer comparison if we only do it in relation to the most common tactical Marines, supposedly the epitome of Marine-hood.
These Marines are 16 points each. We had one at 14 points, in Flak Armour, and without those rules. Power Armour, for those GEQs who have the option, costs 8 points.
Since those rules are obviously worth more than a single point apiece (how much would Dark Eldar pay for ATSKHF? How much would Fire Dragons or Orks pay for Combat Squads?!) we know already that the cost is hugely disproportional.
So, no, to answer the original question.
Marines don't actually pay for everything they have. They'd still underpay for the quality difference between them and IG if they were 22 points each.
Let's get this straight - I play Marines too. But let's cut the crap and fanboi whining when Marines don't get everything available to Xenos, huh? Marines get shitloads.
5 comments:
What about the guardian's getting to use a av12 front transport. Or that valks/vendetta's are in the same codex. Or their army can use different stuff than marines.
These comparison's don't really work head to head, theres too many other things that go into it.
That's not true, you can compare them, the transports and fliers can be compared like for like too.
On the topic Marines will hit what they shoot at 33% more often and survive like fire more than 50% more often than a gaurdsman. What I am trying to say is that the change in stats is not linear as they have inter-plays. A higher BS with a higher weapon strength is greater than the sum of their parts. Same goes with the better save and higher toughness.
Though you'd do better in examining total effect than looking at each stat in isolation. For instance:
A Marine is 16 pts, a Guardsman 5; so 5 SM = 80 pts and 16 IG = 80 pts. Now, who wins; 5 MEQ or 16 GEQ? Head to head doesn't tell us that much, but look at it this way:
5 Marines shooting bolters at IG - 10 shots = 20/3 hits = 40/9 wounds = 40/9 dead IG (ignores their save) = 22.22 pts of dead Guard
at MEQ - still 20/3 hits = 10/3 wounds = 10/9 failed saves = 17.77 pts of dead Marines
16 IG shooting lasguns at IG - 32 shots = 16 hits = 8 wounds = 16/3 dead IG = 26.67 pts of dead Guard
at MEQ - still 16 hits = 16/3 wounds = 16/9 failed saves = 28.44 pts of dead Marines
So, as far as output with basic weapons goes, IG are about 60% better at killing Marines and 20% better at killing Guard (the discrepancy is mainly bundled up in the loss of the IG's armour save vs bolters).
Now, this is 6th Ed, so I can almost guarantee that the IG have 5+ cover, so they're really closer to 60% better at killing infantry all-around.
To make them point equivalent at killing with basic weapons, they should cost around 10 pts each, so the value of BS4 plus bolter is worth about 5 points. But we're trying to find an equivalent for all their stats - what about their higher T and save?
As far as absorbing punishment, you'll see that, when both get their saves, they are roughly comparable per point(26.66 vs 28.44), so they're fairly pointed in terms of resilience.
So, offensively, they should be 10 points and defensively they should be 15-16, so a fair price would be about 12.5-13 points, all else being equal. What about CC, you ask? Where their WS, S, and T make more of a difference... not a good comparison.
16 charging guardsmen are exactly as effective at killing IG or MEQ as they are with lasguns, but Marines actually LOSE effectiveness against other Marines, so they should be even CHEAPER than 10 points in CC. We'll give the Marines the benefit of the doubt, though, due to their higher Init.
So, what does this all tell us? Marines should be 10 points in shooting, 15-16 points in resilience, and we'll say 10 points in CC killing. That makes them worth about 12.5-13 in the shooting phase and about the same in the assault phase, or about 12.5 total.
All else being equal, thus, Marines should cost 12.5 points, not 16. But is all else equal? You mention ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics - but what about IG Orders and Combined Squads - the Orders and Combined Squads are worth at LEAST
as much as ATSKNF and Combat Squads, maybe even all three. If absolutely nothing else, we'll say they are worth Combat Squads and Combat Tactics... and we can say that 35 points for Stubborn from a Commissar spread across 16 IG (or about 2 points each)
makes up the difference and ignore the other benefits a Commissar brings (extra wound, shooting, better Leadership and rerolls for it). So, this means Marines should cost 15.5-16 points each - for EVERYTHING they get (1 more point for Kraks),
being as liberal as we can with adding points at every turn. This means that the MOST that Marines should cost is 15-16 points... incidentally what they cost.
That analysis is basically worthless, as getting your points back, and the even more laughable 'points killed' metrics are ludicrous at best.
Instead of just saying that my analysis is worthless, tell me why. I'm a basically open minded guy, if I'm wrong, I'm typically willing to change things up.
That being said, I don't mean this to have anything to do with "getting your points back." The point here is to illustrate how S, T, BS, etc all work together to generate offensive output and resiliency. The Strength of a model, in isolation, has ZERO value. It is only his whole offense output that matters - this is why a Lascannon isn't automatically better than an Autocannon just because its strength is 2 higher. The total offensive output of a guardsman, per point, is better than that of a Marine, and THAT is what I am pointing out. It doesn't matter what his S is, or what his BS is, it only matters how much he can kill.
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