Now, anyone who's familiar with myself will know this isn't me actually criticising someone I consider one of my best 'Internets Friends' - but I think he could have done this list better, and this is as amusing a way to say so as any, sooooooo......http://bnhblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/hybrid-blood-angels.html - The Original Post, on Chumby's excellent Blog, BnH. My comments in BLUE, as last time.
"HQ
Mephiston
Mephiston is excellent, if ludicrously tasty...er...I mean costly. - Hidden behind a Rhino/Back while he literally skips up the table (actually - perhaps not literally. Do Emo Marines skip? Slouch, sure...but how do you slouch with Wings??) I digress...Mephiston is usually first choice HQ for any BA list that has Mech in it. IMO.
Elites
2x Sanguinary Priests w/ jump packs and melta bombs
No Infernus Pistols? No Power Weapons, I can dig - no Hand Flamers, no big deal...of course, because Chumby did no smexy analysis, we don't know where in the process this came up, so maybe he ran low on points. :p
Troops
3x Assault Squads - 10 men, 2 meltaguns, Sergeant w/ powerfist and infernus pistol
Pretty much exactly what I'd recommend for a Hybrid - no issues here. Except the latest WD, which has an excellent NMM Gold Painting Guide. I know, I know, advertising for them is bad - but that article really does bare looking at, as does the silver one in WD 353( I think it's 353...) Every once in a while, there's something good - and since I thought it'd be fun to do a WD Review every issue, there's a mention of the mag, so it won't be a total shock if I do actually take that plunge. Oh Noes! Spoilers! Ooops.
Fast Attack
3x Baal Predator w/ twin-linked assault cannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons
Here we go. Seriously, Chumby? Ugh. Sponsons. Now, I was talking about this issue earlier, IRL, and I don't think it's my aesthetic sense that hates the sponsons - at least not primarily. Rather, I think it's a combination of cost and playability. Cost - the Baal costs a sizeable 15 points more than the regular Predator - while this covers the cost of both Scouts and the unique turret options, it also pushes the tank up into the higher spectrum of points values on a single [non-multi-wound] model that isn't phenomenal, necessary...or rubbish. I know what you're thinking - "But TKE, it's only 145 - what's the big deal?" - to which I say "Shut Up Brain! - stop trying to read people's minds!" Followed by - That's how much a TL BL Wave Serpent costs, with S-Can underneath. It shouldn't but that's another topic...now - while a WS is essential to keep your T3 paper alive, and has duality of threatening both Infantry and Armour, alongside that mobility not provided outside of that option in the Eldar Dex, it's also virtually mandatory. And overcosted.
Does a Baal really add more than a WS? Apart from the fact that it's less survivable, and mobile - does it add relative mobility? Not in a JP-based list, even Hybrid, so no.
Does it add any tank-killing ability? Well, the AssCan can threaten Rhinos and Chimera Sides...but I think it's been identified it's hardly good at the role. As for the HBolters? They add nothing to the anti-tank use. - Since they're the Sponson, they add nothing whatsoever except a desire to shoot Infantry rather than Tanks...
Does it bring Duality, therefore? Not hardly squire. Adding that desire above, makes their viability against Armoured Targets actually less - as you will know it's a waste.
It DOES add some survivability to the guys huddled behind - but forcing the army to deploy line abreast (to block LoS) with 6 Predators creates this new issue - sponsons get in the way. They prevent going hull-to-hull, like the Guard love to do, and free up the enemy to take better shots, Cover Save be damned. An Autocannon would rather shoot an Obscured Side AV11 than a Front AV13, anyday.
If you deploy in a staggered formation - rather than line abreast? Then they block each other's Fire Lanes. Granting Cover to the foe for free, and blocking own LoS are both Very Bad Indeed.
Heavy Support
3x Predators w/ autocannon turrets and lascannon sponsons
Yeah, I like these, despite the Fail that is the Sponson system. For ranged tank-busting there is no better, just a Rifleman as equal rival - and he is slower than a Predator, leaving him behind the Jump Packs...and he doesn't block LoS.
Total - 2000"
<3 Chumby! Let's hear some rebuttals. :D
Why are Sponsons viable?
Is there nothing better for those points?
Did I cross an invisible line with this post that hurt your feelings?
Will Dethtron comment?
Will Mercer be late to comment, as usual recently? :p
Will Sandwyrm or Farmpunk comment, haven't seen them speak up in a week or so?
Did I put more effort into these pointless questions than most of the rest of the article?
Should I be asleep at 2:30 AM instead of talking nonsense?
16 comments:
Surprisingly, I'm interested in this post and in hearing Chumby's take on it.
I've got two Baal Preds with HB Sponsons and an army to try and build... I need advice!
*waiting*
I have found that Death Company are an amazingly good value, especially in a Rhino. Rage is only as much a limitation as you make of it, and not being scoring helps them avoid being shot by people (who will learn better, but haven't yet).
I agree on the sponsons.
I would strongly consider one of the assaults in a transport, but that may just be a preference.
I'm not sure that being able to move 12" a turn is better than blasting 18" across the board on the first turn. But we're still early in the testing cycles for the Codex, so we shall see.
Especially 18" with Smokes.
I don't know why the DC comment came up, but I see your point, though I am yet to see a way I'd want to use them. lol
Personally, I think Hybrid will never be as coherent as Full-Mech, or Full-JP...but it's worth giving a fair crack at the proverbial. Certainly while I read it I was thinking about one of the squads in a Rhino as an edit. I'm not sure if it'd be better - but I opted for symmetry.
Brent - Surprisingly? lol
Hey, I posted the bulk of my reply up on B&H.
Jwolf, I'm not sure where the DC bump came from. I agree that they are a useful unit, if a bit pricey, but I don't see them being all the necessary here. I've got SHPs for FNP and FC loving. A single Rhino I'm iffy on just because it can be so fragile. Jumping up to midfield and popping smokes is a good way to throw down a big blocking unit, but I don't see anything that would be worth dropping to fit that in. Maybe the sponsons and Pred -> Dread.
How did DC crop up? I did love them, even after alot of playtesting I still love them, but I think other units can do it better.
I like Chumbalaya's list. Bit different as a hybrid and its hard for me to comment properly as I'm not familiar with 2K gaming (in UK)...
What I'm most interested in is the whole sponson issue...I run 3 baals with sponsons at 1500 and could free up a few points without, BUT I would lose so much dakka...horde thinning ability which literally removes handfuls of orks and gaunts per turn...
So....over to B&H!
Venerable
I think AC/HB preds are fine, in a mech army where they play tehehe look at me I'm red painted Eldar with a marine statline! Here they are designed to pewpew at infantry and not go to that side armor and thus expose theirs.
We all know how I feel about hybrid BA so I won't go into that but I think TKE is correct in the sense for sponsons here. You're running them forward as a screen and thus the sponsons are essentially wasted.
Go pure! :P
I agree with King here. I might take sponsons on a Pred, but not on a Baal. Autocannon/Las Preds can be a great anti-tank firebase ... but with Baals I'd want to take advantage of the speed for better positioning and just shoot the main gun anyways. Sponsons don't seem to fit with them IMO.
Sponsons just seem to be ftl. You're only chalking up to s5, and there will be be places where you can only fire with one.
Plus you need to move 12" a turn to keep up with the rate that the JPs want to be traveling at, right?
picking on Chumbalaya- on his birthday no less. Dick move TKE :p
in other news, I'll be testing out my 6 pred list on Vassal Thursday, WITH SPONSONS. I'll let you know how that works out.
The sponsons also have the problem of LOS atleast the turret ontop of a pread allows for 360 degree shooting but the sponsons limit where the pread can shoot and may force you to turn your vehicle and negate your av 13. If you can with leftover points get 2 5 man assault squads in as/plas razorbacks to cover the sides of your flank preads.
I'm not sure which blog to post this on, so I'll go with both.
I'm not overly keen on the sponsons, but they do add something else. Presumed threat. If was facing a few Baals going round with AssCans only, yeah, I want to clear them, but they can wait. The small addition of HB sponsons makes me think... 'if one of my transports goes boom, this guy is gonna ass-rape the guys inside' and he suddenly goes up my 'get rid of quickly' list.
Great set of posts anyways guys. This is really great cross-critique without the cock-measuring! I'd like to see more of this!
Well, I had the advantage of reading your post on BnH already, so I'll answer that improving the enemy's threat perception is bad, as the list otherwise is pretty level in threat levels, IMO.
@Hod - while that could work to counter what is a very good point, I feel it won't work fro BA below 2500 - and at 2500 Alpha Strikes wreck you. :)
If I ever get them done, subsequent posts will show this, hopefully! :D
Every time I make a new BA list it ends up looking like a classic UM list with assault troops and Priests. Kinda boring.
The cool toys are just so expensive. And the models I love like the Baal Pred have no real duality, as you've said.
I don't think of it as improving the enemies threat perception, more like leveling it. If I could shoot my lascannon at a Baal pred with AssCan only or an AC/LC pred, I know where it would go, easy decision and I'd like to think the correct one. Now, if I had the decision of AC/las pred or Baal pred with HB sponsons, it'd be a slightly more difficult decision to make.
I think for the small investment it will make your opponent make tougher choices and therefore more mistakes. I agree that they are a little bit pointless in many respects, but if your opponent choses to ignore them, they can provide some hurt!
I agree that HB on a Baal is a bit of a waste if you plan to move the baals up as assault screens. I also agree that hybrid sucks if you're plan is to assault.
On Chums site I posted my list which is very similar but desighned to make the enemy come to me so I can counter charge. Jump troops are much better as counter chargers than as cross the board into enemy fire assaulters. You want Land Raiders for that.
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