Thud, my e-friend and fellow MWFTW author, wrote an article, below. My IRL friend and gaming buddy Joe, aka Death Korps of War, wrote an essay in the comment section, that I considered copy/pasting, but decided it wouldn't hurt you to reread Thud's article in concert with this. :p
This is my response to said comments (apologies for order, I scrolled up from the bottom of the thread.)
'Fraid we have a disconnect there Joe.
Firstly, a player's army list isn't a small part of the game. For the kind of player who can field 10k of models+, like you or I, sure, it has lesser import - but a lot of thee people can only afford one army. It is therefore very important that people who advise them to waste their money on shit units, leading to them potentially quitting the Hobby, get shouted down.
Players that moan constantly about other players using 'cheesy' 'broken' 'beardy' etc units and comboes are WAAC players without the guts to properly cheat - they care about winning more than any other aspect of the game, but are ashamed to admit this is the case - notice ho they don't complain when they win? This is because they invest too much of their self-esteem into a game of toy soldiers, and cannot stand to be shown that they actually aren't very good at it after all.
It would be a terrible shame if Thud, Kirby, AbusePuppy, and people like them - people willing and able to give genuine and adequate advice, stopped doing so. If this were to happen then the number of people who were trying no NOT be shit at the game would have no method of receiving good advice, save the Blogosphere - and there is more bad than good on Blogs overall. Again, these people are than liable to quit the game, because if I spend £500 quid and lose every game, I'm not risking any more money when maybe it's just me. I'll never get the chance to learn that it's actually the shit advice I'm being supplied with, because my opponents aren't morons.
Just because a unit works for someone somewhere means literally NOTHING. You know I'm better than most of the players we know - I could take shitty units (and have, before, plenty of times) and beat the majority of them. Doesn't in ANY way make those units good or even better. It's just meaningless personal experience, that needs backed up by theory and extensive playtesting to become reasonable to accept. Essentially, as an example - afaik, Stelek, Chumbalaya, Mercer, Danny Internets, Kirby and myself, decided Orks are sub-par, with none of us ever having met another, and spanning 3 continents. The fact that we all came to the same conclusions through our personal experience means a lot more than one Keyboard Warrior screaming that Orks are teh awesomes. Even where we are outnumbered - the fact that we all independently come to this conclusion means there must be something in it - and this is verified by the fact that, otherwise, we have a clear understanding of the game.
Most of these people are NOT learning. They are stagnating, treading water. What's more, they are determined to keep as many other players down at their level as possible so they never have to improve. When they realise they are losing this fight, they resort to pejoratives, such as 'cheesy' etc, in order to try and force compliance with their mandates through guilt and peer pressure. Thud doesn't bash people ASKING for advice, he provides a solid service to them. It's the people who PROVIDE 'advice' that attract his (rightful, imo) ire.
I hope that answers your concerns.
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Sadly, I couldn't get a pic for 'Hello Joe', so that was the best Simpsons pic I found in a minute of searching. Stoopid Jessica Simpson too up most of my screen, UNINTENTIONALLY, thanks. If you require a refresher, the only vid that came up was this crap here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le8khN6xQv0
Really, it IS crap.
4 comments:
tbh i wasnt expecting such a quick rebutle...lol.
i know i may have struck a nerve with some people here, and i even implied that i might.
but in all but one of thuds articles, he has done nothing else, but complain about the idiots at warseer (the other one talking about his recent move to Berkley.) and they arent even new topics. they are more or less the same.
yes people like you and I may have 10k+ armies at our disposal, which means we are spoilt for choice. but we dont use all of it.
we only choose the small section we have tried and tested and know it works.
other players who are only starting...yes they can use our experience, and im not saying we shouldnt give it.
thud can tell anyone he likes on what to buy, or what to use and how to use it.
what i was saying was he should stop complaining about the idiots who suggest things that he knows wont work (either from experenice in using the unit, or fighting against the unit) but talk about something else.
we get the idea he is constantly telling us. some gamers suck, and resort to cheating. so what? we know these people exists. what can we do about them?? we can ignore them all we like, but they are still going to be cheaters.
oh and btw, that video, and the Part 2 one, are creepy....lol
and heres another thought,
if your going to the internet for advice to try and correct your failures, then really you deserve all the crappy advice your given.
if you want to get better at the game, you have to think for yourself and realise your failures and try to address them. i mean who knows how to work your army better than yourself?? when your in a battle you can see what is doing its job admirably, and where something else just isint.
i mean thats what i did. took me nearly three years to get to where i am now.
and if you spent over £500 on the hobby, theres bound to be more than the gaming aspect of the hobby you like.
Interesting thoughts from you both.
I echo TKE sentiments however, most places like warseer unfortunately do not provide a viable venue for most lists to be even trialed let alone looked at and some lists which are obviously the product of some thought and genius are not given their due.
My gripe however is with neither of the camps so to speak, its how we as supposedly experts actually give and dole out that advice.
The so called experts on forums don't discuss enough and same could be said of the blogosphere things like;
terrain
deployment
things to look out for from tournaments, from hey make sure you provide your opponent this as or that, to common courtesy routines that will help you understand whats happening around you.
how to go about simple 3 color painting for those not at evy metal class level or wish to be
Or even basic wargaming assumptions like how to build units that work in synergy with others. Not what just looks cool this month on warseer.
I would love for example to hear how Stelek puts together his stuff. Does he have a method? Does he start with one premise and move forward from there? I love some of his lists, but would get even more out of it if he wrote down how he comes to his ideas or the process he goes through to get those ideas in the first place.
TKE I completely agree with you in regards to sub par players trying to beat down better generals. They are at best shady sith lords rolling out teh comp onion attack .
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