I've been off, much to the chagrin of Mr Pink from down the street, and enjoying myself, sunny weather, FIFA 11 and especially Prison Break taking up my time rather than this whole Blogging lark. Prison Break really did get pretty dodgy in series 4, huh? I never watched 3 and 4 on TV at the time, and am very glad I finally did - it's a riveting show, and overall very, very good...I recommend watching it all within the space of 2 weeks like me (:p) but the 4th Season...well. If it didn't jump that shark, it was certainly on the run up to it.Anyway, I haven't got any big meaningful posts prepared for my glorious comeback, and actually am not really inspired to do much of any writing right now.
Still, I am a little annoyed by some of the retardery I spy in this thread - http://yesthetruthhurts.com/?p=16161
Maybe because this is a topic I discuss at length and frequently IRL...but Mech SHOULD be better in a desert or an open field. No fucking question.
If you have a tank vs a bunch of guys with nothing to hide behind, I don't care if it's in any fantasy universe in the history of time, the men in the open should get fucked up six ways from Sunday. Sure, Foot is inferior inherently to Mech the way the game works right now, and there is a little discrepancy in it...but that is MOSTLY because the majority of armies that want to run Foot armies are outdated. LoganWing goes on foot. Deathwing. DanteWing. Since when are these shit? (Technically, yes, Deathwing wasn't really good until the FAQ, but whatevs)
If you run a 5e Foot army vs a 4e Mech army, the Foot army should actually have a little bit of an advantage, what with not paying over the odds for Transports etc. If you run a 5e Foot army vs a 5e Mech army, it should be largely balanced, albeit sometimes uphill for Nids. If you are finding a huge difference, you're Doin It Wrong, and not using enough Cover, is my reckoning. Or you're using bullshit homebrews like the INAT or ETC.
As for my thoughts regarding how to 'fix' Mech to make it slightly less powerful? Make Entanglement and Pinning separate, in that Fearless units can still have difficulty getting out of the wreckage, and require Ld tests to avoid it, but the result is the same.
For fixing Fearless, which is a little skewed with No Retreat (or rather, fixing the way in which they interact, as the rules independently function appropriately) - I would have the Fearless units take Ld at the modified level, and suffer wounds according to that - eg, a Unit of 27 Orks loses combat by 11, and is reduced to 11 models. The Orks then take a Morale Check based on their Ld value (which is maxed at 10) minus the amount they lose by (11) so they require Snake Eyes not to get somewhat screwed. My only indecision is whether or not to make them take wounds equal to what they fail by (ie, they roll a 3, they take 3 wounds, as their Ld is technically 0) or by what they lost combat by (which penalises Orks and Gaunts, or IG Blobs, but nothing else - and the other system potentially penalises elite units even worse! If a unit of 10 Marines loses by 6, inc the Sergeant, their Ld is two. If they then roll a 12, they take more wounds than they would under this system - and waaay more than number of remaining models. This seems wrong to me.)
Units inside a vehicle already take damage to an extent, in that they are prevented from firing out the hatches while Shaken...maybe you could go far enough to prohibit exiting if Stunned too, but that seems to harm Transports without touching the power of guntanks (which admittedly, are underpowered compared to Transports in some ways) - perhaps a Ld test to allow them out. Certainly there has to be no way to kill models inside Metal Bawkses without trashing the Bawks. Perhaps though the Explodes! result should be a little more damaging to guys inside, but my feeling on that would be instead having a greater damage for rolling a '7' or an '8' - ie, you do greater damage when you blow up Open-Topped vehicles, or with AP1. Problem is that DE get the shaft for several years until a new book. And cos they have so little AP1.
I think that idea has some merit - like say if it's S5 hits on a 7, and S6 on an 8...with Ordnance also getting +1 to the result, to a max of an 8? Gives them the Bunker-Busting properties they seem to require, without returning the bullshit of Annihilated Results.
It also allows Land Raiders to (rather than Structure Points) top off at a result of 6. (While typing this, the idea of simply granting them an additional -2 to Damage occurred, but that would probably be insanely good. They'd be only Shaken on Glances 5/6 times, and Stunned the other. Even on Pens, it's be a 50% chance to Shake. Yeah, stupidly OP. But hilarious.)
That's enough thinking from me for now. Oh, and just in case...I wasn't calling Stelek's ideas retarded, or anyone in particular - just some of the ideas espoused in the Comments. I'm sure you know who you are anyway. ;)
10 comments:
I ended up having a day off and watched like 12-14 episodes of S1 in one day. Got hooked quick.
~Lackeylsk
i had a long winded comment written for this, but the thing fucked up on me as i pressed submit.
so in short. Fearless units should at least get pinned when evactuating a transport...i mean the tank is falling down around them. who wouldnt be scared of that in reality??
and i agree that units like the Orks Guard and Tyranids shouldnt be penalised they way they are when in blob units....its a little unfair in the grand scheme of things.
that is all
all your tank comments made no sense to me,
Yes, because 40k is a game about "reality"...
lol - I could care less how genetically engineered superhumans who regularly consort with warp entities known 'affectionately' as Daemons, and for whom fighting a war for 10,000 years is the norm would react to a couple of explosions in a 'fear' sense. :p
My point is that it's a less than ideal situation physically - explosions injure you and bowl you over. Wreckage falls around you and slows you down. Being on fire is distracting enough to maybe stop you snapping off a few Bolter rounds. Things like that...
The result of Pinning, without being pinned per se.
@TMiles - some of it is. take pinnig and Morale checks for example. you would run away if over half your unit dies in a single Volley, unless your crazy Brave.
i can accept fearless units to just walk into volleys of gun fire and have half their unit destroyed in the process without taking Morale Checks.
but as Rick has pointed out, getting out of a transport tank can still be hazardious, and therefore, they should be pinned, or at least take the pinning test. same can be said for a fearless unit taking Sniper fire. when someone dies unexpectantly and you see no enemy around you...you do run for the nearest cover, and dont move until the sniper is taken care of.....in reality of course, in game, they should still take pinning tests to represent they have been taken by surprise by this.
Oh, don't get me wrong - I am not disagreeing with what you are both saying. As batshit insane as Death Company (or other fearless units) are, I think there are still things that should give them pause - even if it is only because they provide a purely physical impediment (say falling out of an exploding Storm Raven?).
I was just poking a bit of fun at the whole "reality" bit... Consider it an experiment in trolling - a past time I have recently developed an interest in... baby steps and all that...
Also - I think it's fair to say that most units which are fearless do tend to be some of the more fantastical ones. Not your every day "real" soldier.
Although with regard to the sniper aspect and reality, I think comparing it to the Soviets WW2 policy of "advance or be shot as a coward" (ala Commissars) - where they would send their soldiers running at german defensive positions, with one gun for every two soldiers and without any chance at survival what-so-ever proves that you might be surprised by what people are capable of... especially during war time.
If you haven't already seen it - watch "Enemy at the Gates" with Jude Law and Ed Harris. Not exactly a historical movie, but still a good example.
I mean who really knows what would happen in an environment where war has persisted for longer then we've been recording history...
seen the film, but i was thinking about the situation portrayed in Saving Private Ryan, the part where the sniper was trying to lure out the Americans to save Vin Diesel, and then their Sniper killed the German (thought the way they killed the German was OTT, but whatever)
and that situation you describe only applies to the Guard...lol. Marines would have more sense, despite their advantage in armour.
Death Company i would excempt from all tests, pinning or otherwise. mostly because they are crazy and enraged, and other similar units.
Awesome scene in SPR... but as I said earlier how many line units are fearless? Now if they hadn't left their Commissar at home, it might have been a different story. But as it stands it isn't really pertinent to the "fearless" debate, since they wouldn't be fearless, and would be taking a pinning test as normal...
You're are right - Imperial Guard are the only army who might do something desperate or irrational in the heat of battle. Tyranids, orks and daemons are far more savvy then that...
As for Space Marines? Yes, they have more sense. They are also extensively brain-washed and spend several hundred years running combat drills 18 hours a day. So yes, I would expect them to remain cool and calm under sniper fire. If a tactical withdrawal is called for they will do so using Combat Tactics (assuming C:SM - otherwise on a morale check). This is because Space Marines are also not generally fearless. So once again this example isn't really pertinent to the debate at hand...
On a slightly unrelated note.
A BS4 sniper rifle has a ~25.9% chance to kill a space marine.
A BS4 plasma gun has ~55.5 chance to kill a space marine (at 12-24" - better odds at <12" plus chance to kill 2 marines).
I think Space Marines should be pinned by plasma weapons.... ;)
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