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| From DakkaDakka |
Taking the fluff into account, these guys shouldn't be equal to Dark Eldar warriors in terms of weaponry or performance (other than Black Guardians ~ TKE - I'm getting there boss....) - they're just craftsmen, but due to technology being what it is, they should be at least be able to go toe to toe with Guardsmen in terms of performance. I had some difficulty trying to set what I considered the 'civilian' Eldar statline, so I perused the DE dex a tad, and had a long think.
In the end, I decided that other than the Haemonculi and their 'creations' the two Eldar races aren't really aren't that far apart physically - one space elf just decided to spend a little longer on his pottery than touching himself before Slaanesh came to being. So, Guardians are I5 (an upgrade fwiw), S3, T3, LD8 with a measly 5+ save.
*Cue screams of "I hate that 5+ save..."
"I5 - they can't be faster than mai mahreens - they're only puny elves"
"Shit hair cut"
etc*
Everything that isn't made of Wraithbone in this codex is I5 or better - The I value will increase for things like Exarchs, Autarchs, Special Characters and HQs but be at minimum for the living spelves (not Wraithguard and lolords - they're another issue).
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| Image from Warseer |
There's two main types of foot guardian (Defender and Storm) unless I'm very much mistaken, so we will discuss these guys and gals and then.
Guardian Defenders
These guys are the long range spelf basic troop, armed with Shuriken catapults and a heavy weapon platform or two, but are not as good as Dire Avengers for dealing with massed infantry, acting as one of the only sources of duality in the Eldar codex (at a cheap price compared to some of the other stuff out there).I have one or two problems with these guys as they stand. First, their heavy weapons are priced at a lol-tacular level (30pt Bright Lances - It'll hit, what, once before they get blown up or looked at funny by a tactical squad.... yay for my shit troops choice with an overpriced gun!) and that they are just not survivable enough in close combat.
Enter the Tanglefoot (Name pending - IMO it sounds too Imperial - can anyone think of anything better - I like Entanglement - It's an Imperial Designation. The Eldar name is impossible for the Mon-Keigh tongues) grenade.
These things are simple defensive grenades. Imagine, a unit of guardians charged by a Death Company throwing these little grenades downhill, staying the poor guardian's execution by a tiny bit....
(If you want to moan about these being terrible - there was an idea about them causing rerolls to difficult terrain tests if they were being assaulted through cover and counting as in difficult terrain but I judged this to opiee and complex - Nonsense, they slow stuff just like a Murderous hurricane or whatever. Otherwise they suck, frankly. Okay! Lets throw it to the judges... :) )
As well as these grenades, the price of the heavy weapons has changed dramatically, so you aren't paying stupid amounts for terrible BS troops to waste them every turn. You can see these new prices in the linked .pdf of the unit entry.
There was one issue though. Starcannons suck. Plasma at that cost is not advisable or any good.
TKE and I disagree on these things. I am of the opinion that they should be a toned down Dark Eldar Disintegrator (S5 Ap2 H3 24") but TKE thinks:
"I want the Starcannon to be S6 Heavy2...AP1. Yes, AP1. Energy/Intensity of a small star. Makes it a good anti-transport choice, and thus a credible alternative to EML and BL."
So... What do you guys think about these guys... any improvements - or can anyone come up with something else (better) than our efforts?
Storm Guardians
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| From Lexicanum |
Other than the profile changes made for Defenders, these guys are almost the same, gaining the ability to buy Haywire Grenades for +2pts per model as well as the stock Plasma Grenades that almost every unit has. One final change is the ability to buy 3 special weapons per 10 squad members, giving you potentially 6 meltaguns per squad, or 6 flamers if you're that way inclined.. Hmm.
And as the sun sets on another lengthy spiel from me, I leave you with the pre-alpha Codex Entry:
Eldar Guardians
Any feedback/ changes you'd make/ virtual punches to be thrown (i.e. how dare you desecrate my Eldar boyo)....?
Let us know... :)
33 comments:
I5 seems a little high. Regular humans are I3, Marines I4. I'd say the average Guardian should clock in at I4 - faster than Guard, as fast as Marines in terms of reaction time. But faster than Marines seems odd. Are DE Warriors I5? I can't remember.
By giving them I5, your taking away the only Eldar unit, other than Rangers, the Guard can actually go toe to toe with without men dying first. Seems a tad unfair for Civilians to be better than trained, disiplined troopers. Yes they are Eldar and have vast years of experience to bring to a fight. But they are still civilians/local Militia and shouldnt be better than trained troopers. Especially not better than Marines.
I admit, the more I think about it, the less I'm convinced about I5 myself.
But, it's Width's baby, and I'm more than willing to see it through before making a final call.
:)
As I think I wrote in the article.
Dark Eldar haemonculi are I4 and they are seriously 'modified' and DE warriors are I5, wyches I6 etc therefore Eldar are going to be base I5.
It's pretty much the only thing I am being epically stubborn about - according to 'The Path of The Warrior' almost all Eldar walk the Path of Khaine at some point to better control anger - meaning that I imagine that they are better trained than you give them credit (like a Territorial army kind of thing after they've been around Aspect Shrines).
Some people on BWG were moaning about meltas being too cheap for Storm Guardians but I think I'll leave them as they are.
Also, 3 specials per ten is going down to 2.
But the whole of DE population is under arms and fight constantly. Guardians, as i said are civilians and dont have the same fighting experience as the DE units.
Secondly, there is a reason for DE units to be I5. The DE are a mostly CC army, whereas the Eldar are more a shooty army, and have been perfecting the art of CC fighting over centries. Guardians havent, and its pretty evident in their weapon loadout.
So i still stand by what i said. I4, at a stretch, is ok but i still think they should stay at I3
@DKOK- dont have my codex with me but i could o sworn guardians were I4 anyway??
On to the unit entry-
Likes-
Appropriately costed heavy weapons
Option of having 2 heavy weapons in a big squad
Storm guardians having catapult option
Plasma grenades
Defensive grenades on Defenders- it just makes sense
Dislikes-
3 special weapons in storm squads, 2 per 10 makes more sense to me
The name "tanglefoot grenades" lol
Bright lance doesnt have the "Lance" weapon type (wtf???)
Bright lance isnt AP1
On the discussion front, I5 seems fine to me- the guardians arent trained soldiers (at least not in the last century) but they are just naturally far quicker and more graceful than mankind, so i actually dont mind it
Starcannons- at the moment i would prefer the S5 AP2 H3 option, i dont really see what giving it AP1 adds to the starcannon- unless you are firing at AV10 that extra AP doesnt matter cos less shots equals less pens. TBH i still dont see why you would take a starcannon over something else, cover is just too prevalent to make low-AP weapons useful in a situation that a scatter laser wouldnt be
Optional extras i would like to see- DEFENSIVE PLATFORMS
Not just heavy weapon platforms, but those equipped with shield generators (5+ invuln to whole squad?), shadow field generators (Stealth to whole squad) and maybe even a Decoy generator (allows squad to flee a charge without being caught)
Just adds to the ideas of "Defender" squads to me
Otherwise, im liking it Width, whats coming up next?
Guardians are presently I4, with of course Enhance able to make them I5.
Ok... some interesting stuff we have going on here.
First and Foremost... and what I was saying in the other post trying to back up guardians being warriors.
"It's pretty much the only thing I am being epically stubborn about - according to 'The Path of The Warrior' almost all Eldar walk the Path of Khaine at some point to better control anger - meaning that I imagine that they are better trained than you give them credit (like a Territorial army kind of thing after they've been around Aspect Shrines)."
This is exactly what i was talking about.
Eldar guardians are "just civilians" is not accurate... They are like most European countries were everyone has served in the military manditory (almost but not exactly)
Most of them are trained fighters on some level or another, and on top of that you provide them with a standard weapon that is superior to marine weaponry.
I5 is fine for Guardians at base.
Note: who hasn't tested a warlock giving them Enhance which is I5, and WS4... It helps... but doesn't matter much as they still die in droves. When GK can go at I6 it still will dwindle them down even if they have Enhance on top of base initiative 5.
I like the defensive grenades (tanglefoot bag). Think that is nice.
-Balancing purposes I would say you can purchase Haywire grenades for a higher cost on the model and pay individually per model, so it isn't that all models have to be identical and to be honest 20 guardians with Haywire grenades is Overpowered.
-2 per 10 models for the storm guardians as 6 melta guns in the guardian squad, and flamers is strong. also considering we have Fast skimmers with energy shields as transports.
Guardians would be taking the role of fire dragons against armor with having 3 melta guns, Wave Serpants
with Vectored engines, Turbo up > 2nd turn dismount and proceed to Melta all heavy armor and have more wounds. (as they would still be Cheaper overall)
-Starcannons: Ap1 would be nice as well as it is like a powerful meltagun. points cost would be worth staying the same, aswell as the range for the cost.
IF anything else gets Ap1 I would say Brightlance.
When we get to the revamp of warp spiders > They need Haywire grenades.
~lackeylsk
Just to throw up a ball, have you considered Ld7 for Guardians? For a militia that's not bad at all.
As regards their Initiative, are Eldar normally supposed to have quicker reactions than Astartes? If so, then I5 is appropriate.
Compared to DE warriors, their greater fighting experience is already reflected in their higher skill stats, so a difference in Initiative is not necessary to differentiate them, as far as I'm concerned.
And according to this newcomer on the blog, defensive grenades are an excellent idea.
Really? When i saw their entry i thought i saw I3. Obviously wasnt paying that much attention.
But even so, they still dont deserve to be I5 base. They are Militia after all. And no matter how well trained they are in the art of war, they still would not be better or as good as the regulars who have been fighting a lot more and are more experienced because of it.
Unless Eldar reflexes are normally good enough to warrant I5 despite training or experience.
Inititive doesnt have anything to do with reflexes. Its a measure of your ability to think of the best way to attack your opponent before he can strike, and possibly kill, you.
Experienced, regular, troopers can do this better than a Militia force, because they have been fighting for a lot longer and against several different foes. A Militia just doesnt have the same amount of experience as a regular unit would.
And if your thought processes and physical reactions simply happen faster than those of lesser species, it has the same effect.
Eldar as a whole (most of their army runs on Initiave 5, and seargants 6) As eldar are faster then most already. only a few units, warlocks, Guardians, rangers, and those that are made of wraithbone are typically initiative 4.)
Guardians being bumped by 1 is not going to make or break and honestly.. I don't care if they get the benefit or not as they are fielded in a minimal number compared to units of dire avengers anyways. even with current changes I still would maybe have 1 or 2 units out of a 2k list.
Their guns would have to be 24" in range and have more range then Dire Avengers before I would change that fact.
As Dire Avengers have:
-Better armor save
-Better inititive
-Longer range weaponry
-BladeStorm
-can take defend (not common but does have it's offensive uses)
Thanks for all the feedback so far. I will have another couple of units ready for scrutiny on Tuesday - guardian jet bikes and rangers. :)
Several times I see people's worry about the short range of shuriken weaponry, which I think befits the background.
Here's another oddball idea to cope with that. Give the Eldar a modified Fleet rule: a rule that both grants them the normal benefits of Fleet and allows them to make a run move in the assault phase (if they've shot in the shooting phase, so you cannot have two run moves in the same turn). That way you can advance into shooting range and then fall back, hopefully out of assault range.
Araith - while interesting, I don't think that rule should be given to Eldar INFANTRY. ;)
Why not? Why not allow them to skirmish with their short ranged weapons?
Because its the type of rule the Tau Fire Warriors need more than the Eldar Infantry.
My emphasis there was not accidental.
Infer what you will.
As for Fire Warriors, nonsense. What THEY need is:
Drones to accompany them, preferably carrying Rail Rifles, and;
Ion Cannon turrets on Devilfish.
lol
TKE, your emphasis was clear. And I disagree. Currently the Fleet rule represents fleetness of foot that can be used to run into melee faster, but why couldn't it also be used to keep your distance from the enemy, while shooting on the run? That would make the rule have benefit for the more shooty elements in the Eldar armies.
And it's still not as fast as what Eldar jetbikes or what jet infantry can do, as they can move 6", while my suggestion would only allow for Eldar infantry to make a D6" run move in the assault phase.
As regards the Tau, yes, a rule like this would also benefit them, but they don't move as fast as Eldar do. So while a skirmishing rule that would allow them to move differently would be interesting, they shouldn't just be allowed to move more or faster, what my suggestion would allow the Eldar to do.
I made the choice to stick them at I4 and to go with my Starcannon (Ahaahahahahaha) - see the article posted later on tonight.
Rick, while you are indeed correct that the tau need more/better guns on almost everything. They already have Ion cannons on the Devilfish. Its called a Hammerhead. But sure you already knew that...lol
As for the assault move. Fast or not, the Tau already have this move with the Battlesuits, whereas the Eldar do not. Your whole notion that the Eldar body is faster, while it may be true, is completely irrelevent.
The Tau need the use of Jetpacks to do their free assault move. What makes you think that Infantry can move faster than technology???
But my idea for this is to give Defensive grenades a new ability to replace the one we have. Lets face it, removing the charge bonus is no real bonus to the defending squad.
What they need is to have the ability to allow a Ld test to see if you can "retreat" your squad out of their charge range (up to 6" only, so this wont work against cavalry type units)
The good point about this is that both Tau, and i think im right about this, and Eldar have defensive grenades, as do the DE.
This way, you would get your 6" movement, but only if you get charged, and only if you pass an Ld test. That way it makes it fairer on the other factions.
(Rick i know you wont agree with my suggestion...lol)
Fleet being able to run backwards in the Assault phase creates serious potential balance issues.
Look at the NOVA boards, and tell me you'd like to face an Eldar army that can move in and out of LOS block every turn to take pot-shots?
Aspect Warriors martial skills are better represented in other ways, and Guardians are hardly known and feared for their prowess in battle (in the fluff, they're a joke on the table at present) either, and so I see no fluff justification for such a rule, and serious balance issues with it to boot.
If Jervis Johnson can teach us only one thing (and that's likely) it is that you should always try and use the existing fluff to determine the character of the rules you write, not the other way around.
Joe - the Ion Cannon isn't a legitimate option on the HH, because the Railgun exists, and has Submunitions. You know this.
Apart from that, it is a rather nicely statted weapon, and deserves more of an option to shine...plus (and I won't waste everyone's time bemoaning the ineptitude of Burst cannons) the 'Fish has an inferior weapons loadout to any comparable Transport, and needs a buff. Match made in heaven.
Your Def Nades idea is interesting, but flawed if you try to make it generic. No way do Plague Marines and Grey Knights warrant that. Anyway, Eldar do not presently possess any form of Defensive Grenade.
To follow up on the name, Tanglefoot, it is one of the few varieties of Grenade from 2e 40k that is not presently in the ga,me in some capacity, albeit most have radically different effects.
I first proposed them several years ago on Warseer, to a player writing his own Exodite Dex, and the idea has stuck wwith me. I am both adamant that they should be incorporated into the Codex in the present form (slowing enemies attempting to reach us, rather than Joe's idea the other way around) and with the name, to tie into the game's rich history.
It may not mean much to those of you who started after or during 3rd Edition, but it's a strong 'in' reference to those of us who are more veteran than that, and thus - like Blind and Hallucinogen, it's important.
Finally, I agree that there shouldn't really be a question of Eldar infantry naturally moving faster than Jet Packs - even though they would in fact be marginally slower.
I never said it was a legit option. twas just pointing the simple fact out.
And no, you dont have to point out the obvious. Tau players already, painfully, know the uselessness of the Burst Cannon, which is only offset by the more useful Smart Missile System (despite the fact its str5 ap5, which annoys me to no end...the ignoring all terrain more than makes up for it, and the Burst Cannon)
Giving the Fish a nose mounted Ion Cannon, or something equivalent would be very nice. But then you'd have to think about the cost GW would have to spend to make new parts for it. Lately they seem to want to make us pay a lot more for stuff they know could be better.
Recently i was actually caught off guard by how much the Guard infantry box cost. £18??? Thats the same price as the old 20 man box. Its cheaper to buy the £5 box of 5 troopers than it is to buy the other. £20 and i have 20 troopers, with just Lasguns and no other options. But then the Guard dont need all that much more do they??
Sometimes i wonder if GW's head is screwed on right.
I did say you werent going to like my suggestion....lol
But realistically, the DG idea could only apply to the Tau, since they are the only army in 40k that doesnt want to be in combat.
Yes the Guard is also an army you dont want to go into combat with. But then again, the Infantry doesnt really matter on the table.
But really, the DG does need a better rule. As said, the no charge bonus, is no bonus at all. Even you said so.
And for your last point....I already said all that....lol
Actually, I want it on the turret, as with the HH - I just want the upgrade as an option that halves the Transport, but gives them that range firepower.
The HH then has only the Railgun as an option...I suppose defaulting it the Ion Cannon with a Transport, and removing that with the RG makes Tau a more efficient mechanised force, which would be nice.
It would need a new design of turret to make it not look like a HH. But there in lies the problem.
GW doesnt change anything, unless they think its necessary. And when they dont, they just up the price anyway. Just like the Basilisk. the old model used to cost £25, but when they replaced the tracks with the new set, they uped it to £30, for no reason. I mean the Russ box deserved to be upped in price to £30 because you got 3 variants. The basilisk was just a basilisk.
And yeah, giving the Fish the cannon, probably would make the Tau a better mech army. But how many transports in 40k have marine killing weapons, aside from the Eldar and DE, and the SM Razorback ?? (but its barely a transport, what with only 5 man capacity....roughly)
But, in the forseeable chance that the Fish will stay the same as it is now, all i would want to see happen to it is it's points value to be dropped to 60pts. (Really i want it down to 40pts, but thats just wishful thinking) That way you can give it SMS and then your up to 80pts, with 20-30pts to spend on Multi-Trackers, Targetting Arrays, Disruption Pods....whatever you please.
80pts standard is just to much for all of its faults.
60 points is pretty fair - but the SMS isn't a 20-point gun. lol
Why are we still awake?? haha.
I was watching House...lol
tbh i agree, but i dont see GW changing the price of the SMS in any new codex.
The fact it ignores all terrain on the board is probably why its 20pts atm.
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