It got me thinking, as I read, that it's been a while since I wrote an article or any sort of list including the ubiquitous War Walker myself. I'm usually quite eager to downplay its usefulness in competitive play, simply speaking Falcons and Fire Prisms are just better.
That said, the comment by Dverning asking Raptor not to ignore the possibility of Outflanking with them. I don't think it's anything like as strong as a list that doesn't rely on a gimmick such as this, but here it is, a list based on that principle... :
HQ:
Autarch;
Power Weapon, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters, EJB. - 130
Autarch;
Power Weapon, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters, EJB. - 130
TROOPS:
6 Jetbikes;
2 Shuriken Cannons. - 152
6 Jetbikes;
2 Shuriken Cannons. - 152
6 Jetbikes;
2 Shuriken Cannons. - 152
HEAVY SUPPORT:
3 War Walkers;
2 Shuriken Cannons (each) - 120
3 War Walkers;
2 Shuriken Cannons (each) - 120
3 War Walkers;
2 Shuriken Cannons (each) - 120
That's the base for the army, 1076 points. At this point it's fairly strong, and keeping Full-Reserve is obviously what you need to do. With 3 Troops taken, all the HQ and HS slots gone., we move to Fast Attack and Elites.
Scorpions support the theme, and provide a CC Element to support the Walkers, but distract from the fact they are meant to be throwaway units, harassing the foe in an Alpha Strike capacity. Scorps cannot do this, as they can't assault out of a Serpent. So they are disregarded. Harlies slow the list down too mush. Banshees suffer the same Fail as Scorps, only worse as they cannot Outflank - Dragons for the latter reason, even though they could get out to do serious hurt. Wraithguard are terrible. So...
Shining Spears add a serious CC punch to what is essentially an all Jetbike list with no Seers - but are also a horrible points sink. 'Maybe' pile for you. Hawks are the worst unit in the Dex... :( The chances of them taking out the few things the massed S6 can't deal with are too slim to consider, and the anti-horde too expensive for S3. Vypers add some much needed range, and more formidable anti-tank, but at too great a cost in points. 'Maybe' pile again. Warp Spiders are great fun to use, and support the theme well by dropping in behind the foe. Cost is an issue, as is the inability to deal with AV13+ rears. 'Maybe' once more.
Troops then...Foot Guardian? Too expensive. Stormies? Enough S6 that the Flamers are kinda redundant...and BS3 Fusion Guns x2 for 96 points + Serpent? Maybe. Dire Avengers can't do their job well enough. Plus, they add exactly ZERO anti-tank, which is what we need most at this juncture. Rangers? No, more than enough S6 to deal with MCs. More GJBs? Hmmm. Maybe this is the right tack. Some quick sums...
Add 2 more, ten man, units, with 3 Cannons apiece = 500 points. Leaves us on 1576 (for 1500, at this point, drop Power Weapons, Mandiblasters and a single Jetbike from each ten. - Rely on AVOIDING melee all game. Tough, but possible.) Since I'm writing for 1750, my usual level, I have a little under 200 points to spend.
Warlock + Spear + Enhance (for Walkers) = 63 apiece...add three of these to the 6-man units, and we have1898 points to add to 1576 = 1765. Damn. Just over. Okay, principle is sound, just a tweak.
Drop a 6-man unit, to go down to 4 Troops. Now we're spending 1550. Add Warlocks with Embolden to ten-man units. 1650. Finally, add two 50-point Vypers. Admittedly, they're not in any way tough enough to do their job particularly well, but they add two things - one, if you fail the Reserve rolls for them, you should still be rolling enough to get a lot of things on the board, at 2+ from Turn 2. (ProTip - roll the first dice with no modifier. If you get fluky and get nothing on Turn 2 you deny the enemy even more shooting phases, making your job easier.)
This list has a lot, and I mean a LOT of 24" Firepower, but little beyond that. Well...none. It's as Glass Hammer as you will see, ever. Looks like a lot of fun to play though. I don't own anywhere near enough Jetbikes to work this, if anyone tests it, please let me know. lol
Further reading on this topic:
http://hobbyinfobythekingelessar.blogspot.com/2009/09/fellow-heretic.html - advice that includes War Walker mentioning.
http://hobbyinfobythekingelessar.blogspot.com/2009/06/eldar-jetbike-list.html - My optimal Jetbike list (at the time. lol)
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/ - generally very good on Jetbike related matters.
http://40kmaunderings.blogspot.com/ - Dverning's own blog. A good quality site.
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/ - Stelek's Eldar advice isn't frequent, but it's usually very good indeed.
*If you have an article that should be here, please let me know. I plan to edit link to YTTH later to find one of Stelek's Eldar articles.*
11 comments:
I have tested a list very similar to this, and have found a few things worth noting. 1) Scatter lasers are quite superior to the shurikan cannons. Not because of the shots necessarily, but because of the range. I too initially put cannons on the walkers, but then later found the 24" to be too prohibiting. Its difficult to get multiple units of them to work in concert and fire at the same target when necessary, and its difficult to for them to stay back and get that much needed cover save because of the AV 10. Not to mention the additional number of shots is nice. 2) A glaring weakness I see in the list is effective tank hunting. The list does have an absurd about of S6 shots, but that can only get you so far. I think eldar unfortunately NEED fire dragons, preferably 2 units of them, because if you just have one your opponent can concentrate on it and immediately take out your only heavy tank threat. So I would sacrifice some jetbike squadrons for 2 units of five in waveserpents. Just my .02
I was hopeful that the Flanking by Walkers would counter the need for the range, and, to some extent, the lack of Armour-busting.
You are of course correct, that MechDar lists do, sadly, need 2 squads of Dragons to remain potent after a lucky hit.
Your experience in this matter is of course more valid than my theory here, thank you for posting.
The problem with being dependent upon the outflank is that your main firepower units aren't coming in until turn 2, (2 autarchs at least ensure this) but you may not even come on the side you need them. Maybe go midway? 2 units with scatter laser, and outflank the othe with cannons? I also think the walkers benefit from forturne a whole lot.. Just another thing to think about..
Why not just have 2 squads of DA in serpents along with 2 squads of FD in serpents but work it like a line of serpents to provide a coversave for the warwalkers to make up for their av 10.
Its basically a variation of the guard wall of steel and since SMF doesnt apply much now in 5th, you can make the serpents move 6' each turn.
The only problem is, it makes your army slow but unless you can protect the warwalkers, not much else to do.
Hmmm. That's an intruiging way to try and make them more viable.
Going full reserve mitigates things not coming in the right side a bit, but overall you're surely right Tyler.
I think I will actually try to build this army after all to test it myself...anyone want to lend me 30-odd Bikes?? ;)
I only got 24
hod
I am inspiring! Or something.
Massed jetbikes give you troops with inherent mobility, but there's still the part where someone brings AV12+, and you've got issues. I think with lucky outflanking you might be able to pull off the 24" thing, but if the enemy castles to a side, there's a 33% chance you'll enter out of range and a 66% chance you'll be well within his range come shoting time.
I ended up with the 4x Serpents and 2x FD just because I can't think of any other decent way to give yourself tank busting; I don't count the odd Warlock waving a Witch Blade at a tank as that reliable.
Plus, all the enemy has to do to really counter the outflank is sit in the rear.
It kind of brings me to the problem with Eldar; S6 ain't what it used to be, because glancing ain't what it used to be. I mean, back in the 4th-ed day, we could shoot up the AV12 buggers and watch 'em pop with that many shurikannons and/or scatter lasers.
I have run into the outflanking War Walkers thing a bunch in tournaments, especially when the Eldar player is going second.
Here's my game plan:
Punish the Eldar for not having their whole army on the table.
Have a unit ready to zap them (that they cannot zap when they enter).
Lose a unit or a good portion of it when they open fire.
Note they will not be guided when entering play this way, so will likely be ineffective even against small units vulnerable to their fire.
Blow them up.
Move on with the game.
At range, it's all about what kind of army I'm playing. If it's a foot army, or weakly armored--the War Walkers and any screening unit get prioritized. If I'm heavily armored (or don't care) I deny the Eldar their mobility as normal.
YMMV.
Note: Eldar are not easy to defeat even with a so-so opponent against you, if your list sucks...
I enjoy War Walkers with EMLs. It's a bit pricier than the scatter lasers, but they're even better dual-role than the Str-6 spam is. They don't need Guide for anti-infantry duty because they fire blasts, and they can pin. Also, the extra range really helps with AV 10. One thing though: if I do reserves with them, I rarely outflank, as their range combined with the entire long board edge means I'm next-to-guaranteed to be able to shoot the target of my choice when they come on from the long edge, but if you get the wrong edge when outflanking it doesn't work as well.
just tried this exact list yesterday (not by coincedence) I found it to be quite effective, but probably because both of my warwalker squads that came on came to the same side, and i was able to hold the jetbikes in reserve till turn 3. Also, I ran the autarchs with laser lances, because there is no reason not to. The autarchs ended up not doing anything except kill a rhino in cc when it rammed (lol death or glory) and the bikes were really stars as i killed 4 rhinos with their cannons during the game, and the units inside followed their transports quickly because of the warwalkers. The game was 1250 btw and each bike squad was given a warlock to make up the difference (lol not creative)
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