One option that simply doesn't exist in the Vanilla Marine Codex is the capacity to take a metric fuckton of AV14 bastions that rumble up the table turning Infantry into paste.Arguably, the Nilla Marines do a fab turn in Crusader Armies, when you take Vulkan and MC Hammer - but that's not really a balanced list, by any stretch of the imagination.
The Chaos Codex has the possibility of a LR-based army, but it frankly sucks, because it's full of Chaos units. The costing for the Chaos Land Raider is pretty good (well done Gav, no-one really ever gives you any credit regarding the Codex, because it's crap, but that was one thing you did just right!) but you can only possibly take 6, they have to be Godhammers, and you need Chaos Terminators to take them. Far from ideal.
The BA Dex, though, has the intruiging concepts of :
a) Dedicated Land Raiders in Troops
b) Deep Striking Land Raiders
Now, while the second is Epic Fail in most circumstances, it does remain valid, simply because it's free. Yes, that's correct, you pay nothing for the option. Y'know, like Vectored Engines should be! (Hint hint nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more) The first option is promising, but the simple expedient of cost makes it unlikely that the list would be anything approaching viable at under 2000 points.
With that in mind...Army Building Experiment, I Choose You!
Er...
Right.
Well, since we have such expensive Transports, let's start with Troops.
Since the Vehicle is an Assault Vehicle, the possibility exists to grab an Assault Squad, or DC, and slap them in. DC though, would make enemy target priority easy, or else require Astorath. Since AstroBoy costs 220 points, that's an option I'll provisionally rule out (as cool as a DC Raider would be!) Scouts remain a possibility, but they only exist in most SM armies for the sake of Telion. Telion isn't an option here, so we're comparing (5) Assault Scouts at WS3, 3A each on the charge, 3 PF attacks (WS4) for 100 points to 25 points more for WS4 Base attacks, and Jump Packs. Oh, and the fact that the Scouts can't choose a Dedicated Transport of any flavour. Tough shit, shitty Scouts, you're out.
Tacticals can't get a Meltagun at 5 men, and for this crapness they're 10 points less than Assault Marines? Really?? Stick a bastard in it you crap.
So, Assault Marines are the only decent option. Removing JPs gives a 35 point discount to a Transport also, which is awesome news, as it bring the LRs down to roughly Chaos cost. Funny how that worked out. Have I said how much I like Matt Ward? Anyway - for now, let's work on the principle that we're taking 3 Troops. They all have to be the same, for symmetry - so 3 of the following:
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, TH/SS Serg, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 390
Now, you're probably wondering where the arse I got a TH/SS from. Simples. I looked at the squad, and reasoned that weight of fire would prevent a Fist being effective. Despite this, the ability to smash a Tank's face with my hands is useful, and valuable in a list that's going to seriously lack supporting fire due to 400-point Troops. I wanted to improve survivability enough to pose a serious threat, and hit stuff hard enough to beat the crap out of it. Bear in mind this may well change, after all - 50 points for that combined Wargear is more than TDA would cost, were it an option.
To maintain symmetry, (and not auto-Die) we now need Sanguinary Priests, 1 per Raider:
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol, Melta Bombs - 70
Three of those guys would work, but let's look at other options. TDA for a Sang Priest makes them 85, but has no option for a Fist. Fist in Power Armour would work, but it has an issue with being easy to pick out of the unit. Power Weapon or LC addition would push our guys up to 85 each, still less than the JP guys in the last list, but we're taking 3, not 2. I think I'll stick with what I got above, for now.
Thus far, we've spent 210 on Elites, and 1170 on Troops, for 1380 Total. Time to get an HQ? Why not?
How about Seth? 160 points of S8 Rending attacks, I4, 4A, 4W, WS6, Iron Halo...oh, wait. 3+ Armour, T4, no Furious Charge. Hmmm. Not rubbish, but not incredible.
Okay, who else can get into a Raider? A 150 point Reclusiarch with Infernus pistol and Melta Bombs?? Seems a little pricey to me. Tycho? 175 points of Preferred Enemy: Orks? I jest, Tycho isn't awful. But he's not really great either. That leaves the Captain, and the Librarian. I could lie to you, and say I'm picking a Libby because I used a Captain last list. I could be vague, and simply say the Libby is more competitive than the Captain (he is.) Instead, I refer you to page 63, to read Shield of Sanguinius. In layman's terms, I'm driving my Land Raiders up the table behind a 3" tall hedge. Sweet.
Librarian; w/ Infernus pistol, Shield of Sanguinius, The Blood Lance. - 115
Two of those then. To take him in TDA with a SS, fyi, is 145. That's a bit steep for me, I dunno about you guys, but I can't risk that investment in a 2W T4 character lightly.
Overall, that takes me to 1610, and I only have 3 Raiders - no more than a regular army could manage. My guys are Scoring, and better than Troops in a SM version...but so far the FnP and Libby are the only real changes.
Well, let's make the list more balanced, see where that takes us. Fast Attack. As usual for Mehreens, Speeders are the default here. 2 Squadrons of 2 should provide a lot of punch, and the extra anti-horde and anti-tank duality is never a bad thing.
Land Speeder Squadron: -140
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Two of those choices is 280, which added to my total is...1890. :( Only 110 points left to get Elites AND Heavy Support? Not good. Not good at all.
Okay, what if we go back to Troops then. Are those TH necesary? Are the Storm Shields, more importantly? Should we treat RAS as super-DAVU in this list? The short answer, is yes, but. The long answer is No, except [sentence fragment, consider revising]. Let's scrap the crap, and see what happens.
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 340
Three of those is another 150 points to play with, giving me 260. A lot? Shit no. But it'll have to do. A squad of 5 Devastators with 4 Multi-Meltas is 130. Is it good? No. Is it dangerous? Well, yes actually. They're no Long Fangs, but they could certainly do a job on MCs. They'd rape enemy armour within 24", and within 12? Fugeddaboudit. That said, they don't fill the holes in the army quite right, round peg in a larger square hole - they'll be able to get in, but they leave a space around the edges, and you're fresh out of Green Stuff.
Riflemen Dreads cost the BA 120 points. Two of these? A Deep-Striking Terminator Squad? A Drop pod of Sternguard? Drop a Librarian and take 2 Libby Dreads? Wait, what? Sternguard?
Sternguard; w/ 5 Combi-Meltas, Drop Pod - 185
Oh. That's waaaayyy short. Okay, Add 3 guys at 30 points each = +90 = 275. Ooops. Okay, 2 guys, and we're 15 points shy, so a Lightning Claw for the Sarge. Why not a PW? Well, he replaces his pistol for this option, or he replaces his Combi-Weapon, which costs me a Meltagun. With no Pistol, no +1A whichever I pick, so no contest. Is that good? Well, it's okay.
How about I actually focus on what the list's lacking though? Suppression fire from the back. To cover this, ideally, 2x AC/LC Preds. That's 270. So I need to scavenge 10 more points. Drop the Melta Bombs! Yep, it hurts, but it's required to make this list 'balanced'.
So, the finished article:
Librarian; w/ Infernus pistol, Shield of Sanguinius, The Blood Lance. - 115
Librarian; w/ Infernus pistol, Shield of Sanguinius, The Blood Lance. - 115
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol - 65
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol - 65
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol - 65
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 340
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 340
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 340
Land Speeder Squadron: -140
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder Squadron: -140
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Predator; w/ Lascannon Sponsons - 135
Predator; w/ Lascannon Sponsons - 135
TOTAL: 1995
Thoughts?
PS - Dropping the Libby for a 'Rock' army works thusly.
Librarian; w/ Infernus pistol, Shield of Sanguinius, The Blood Lance. - 115
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol, Melta Bombs - 70
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol, Melta Bombs - 70
Sanguinary Priest; w/ Infernus pistol, Melta Bombs - 70
Furioso Dreadnoought; w/ Librarian Upgrade [Wings of Sanguinius, Shield of Sanguinius] - 175
Furioso Dreadnoought; w/ Librarian Upgrade [Wings of Sanguinius, Shield of Sanguinius] - 175
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Melta Bombs, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 345
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Melta Bombs, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 345
Assault Squad; w/ Meltagun, Melta Bombs, Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Extra Armour] - 345
Land Speeder Squadron: -140
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder Squadron: -140
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
Land Speeder; w/ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta.
TOTAL : 2k on the button.
19 comments:
Y'know, BTs can do LRC spam too :P
I like the list, it's got 3 big bricks but enough backup that they aren't totally unsupported.
If it were me, I'd probably go for 2-3 fully loaded Assault Squads for cc punch, leave the SHP in the Raiders to give a much bigger bubble, and go for Preds/Dreads/Typhoons to support.
Are you planning on deep-striking those land raiders? or do you plan to roll them up the board each game?
A 5+ save is not really good enough to rely on, although you get the one turn of 4+ from smoke.
I just can't help but think there is a better power out there for the Librarian to have than a flimsy cover save. Maybe str10 attacks?
In general, yes, I'd think the S10 Attacks, or Fear of the Darkness would be nicer to have.
In this list though, the key is keeping those Raiders alive long enough to do the job.
When people deride DSing Raiders they usually forget the Smoke Launchers - I haven't, but I still think it's an option, not an important tactic. An army that works on the DS Raiders as a linchpin is a different beast, and will be posted sometime in the next 24 hours. :)
Overall, I'm faintly disappointed with the list at 2k, tbh. I think the extra 500 points of 2500 would make a huge difference, and screw all notion of balance, without being overly detrimental.
Also, I think the second variant, with the LibDreads, would be more fun to play.
I want to find a place for some Librarian Dreads as well. I have thrown them into some lists, but there hasn't seemed to be much synergy. It feels gimmicky, like they don't belong.
I need to find some kind of list where they won't get shot to pieces first turn and be allowed to do their work.
I need a huge target to soak up the shots so they can get into position and wreck face.
Maybe Meph? I don't know.
Frankly, when a LRC/LRR isn't enough to take fire away from you, you have to suck it up.
I reckon nothing but Mephiston can detract enemy fire from the Libby Dreads, which is why I wouldn't usually recommend Magna-Grapples...But you'd know that, if I got off my ass and did a full Codex review. lol
"stick a bastard in it you crap!" Nice!
Beaten to it by Chumalaya! BTs do it best!
2000 pts could see 5 LRCs or 3LRCs/3LRs?
Probably wouldn't be such a great list though!!
Working on a similar 3LRC list, I think BT would give the first list a serious run for it's money.
Not sure about the 2nd list, not sure the dreads 'balance' the list, but then again it is a 'rock' -don't get me started!
I think the first list needs something more to set it apart from the other marine codices. Although C:SM can't take the raiders and the preds, it doesn't seem as unique as it could be.
Removed your double post Brother L, lol :p
You're right, the list doesn't seem that different on paper. In practice though, I get the feeling it'd run very differently - remember the Sang Priest, the Meltaguns in the bunkers etc.
The Predators would advance along with the LRRs, because they're Fast, and the Speeders are even more throwaway than usual.
Also, the Dreads were to make it a Rock...ie, UNbalanced. ;)
Stay tuned for a different kind of list guys (or rather, come back in half an hour, when I've it done...)
I've done that 3 times today! I think it's time to give up the interweb.
I agree the sanguinary priests may make things run a little different, but let's look at what BT can do...
EC - Abhor - 110
Reclusiarch - BP - 96
Reclusiarch - BP - 96
Crusader Squad - 5 Initiates - MM/Melta 100
LRC - smoke - 268
Crusader Squad - 5 Initiates - MM/Melta 100
LRC - smoke - 268
Crusader Squad - 5 Initiates - MM/Melta 100
LRC - smoke - 268
Speeder x 2 - MM/HF - 150
Speeder - MM/HF - 75
Speeder - MM/ HF - 75
Tri-Las Pred - 145
Tri-Las Pred - 145
1996
5+ psy defence, re-rolls to hit in 2 squads (in assault), added long-range AT (TLLC over AC).
Probably not quite as nice, but the BT list took took a few seconds. I'm just trying to say the BA list doesn't shine like it could.
The fast element to the Preds would make a difference and after playing a couple of games against them they can be really nasty. I'm assuming they're Autocannons. How much would Baals cost as they would be nice.
Yeah, I got the 'rock' thing - finally! :)
Hmmm. Okay. That BT list is def better than mine. lol
On the plus side, mine has more Melta, and deals with Hordes MUCH better. I also DID say the 2nd List would be better*, lol.
Check the next list for DS Shenanigans.
*(Actually, I said more fun...let's hope no-one comments on that...)
Oh, and yeah, AC/LC Preds. Baals would be minimum 115, and can't have LC Sponsons, only HB/HF.
Minor (or major) quibble, you have built an SM army with a clear cut lack of long range firepower. A fast moving army can dance around without realistically being threatened and force you to chase them around. While the Libby dreads are cool you could for the same price and then some get a couple of riflemen dreads and a typhoon to provide what I think would be a welcome does of high strength and long range shots.
EXACTLY! Despite the potential benefits of Land Raiders in every FoC slot, it's highly impractical. The army is inordinately difficult to balance, because so much simply must go into Troops with LRs. In order to cope with Hordes, the ability to take Long Range anti-tank diminishes, and vice-versa.
Trust me, I'm building towards lists that address this. ;)
The first list looked fun, so I played it tonight vs a pedro list. Played the ork battle mission where I was the "ork" modified kps, I could have voluntarily ran off the board on turn 3 to win, but it just didn't feel right. I guess I wasn't in it to win it. The list did surprisingly well, lost by 1 point on turn 5. Would have probably won had the game went on longer. But anyways both of the BA raider articles were very good. I really enjoy your blog, and humor. Keep up the good work.
Been thinking more about the list... The other thing that makes the vanilla marine version so terrifying is the contents. With your first finished version you have nothing that really sheds a walker (2 MBs is nice, but I don't like count on them). Yeah furious charge is nice, but whereas TH/SS termies kill what need to be killed, these squads are more like bezerkers minus the PF aspiring champ. To your earlier point about how to take fire away from the libby dreads, make it so that you don't want the LRs to get to your lines. If the contents don't really intimidate me then I don't even waste my pirhana/LS/transport blocking the move and instead focus fire the dreads/speeders then take absorb the charges and deal with the contents... Then again it's late and I'm probably not thinking as clearly as I could be.
I think overall, despite the capacity to take a ton of Raiders in the list, that it just isn't truly feasible. It's okay, I think the dizzying heights of semi-competitive are there for the taking - but I think the list won't ever be as strong as all-Jumpers. Or, possibly, regular BA Mech. We shall see reg Mech in action... ;)
Interesting...
I have to ask.
WHAT THE FUCK DOES TDA STAND FOR???
tactical dreadnought armor
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