Well, Stelek has put up some very interesting ideas on the subject, and in turn Mkerr has put up some very interesting suggestions for an alternate system. StJohn70 is working on his own set of ideas, and no doubt it is in the minds of all TOs quite frequently - How can we make Sportsmanship relevant?
Wow! Hold on there TKE. Bit extreme? I mean, surely, most TOs see it as already relevant, what they are after is some way to make it a real ball-breaker if you're a BAD sportsman, and yet make it rewarding to be a GOOD one?
Well, a lot of people would say that. But I disagree.
Now, 79% of the respondents at Adepticon said that they agreed "Sportsmanship Scoring" should be included at most 40k events (thanks to Matthias for the figures!) - This is a HUGE section of the Community. Yes, the majority of players polled may lean more towards the 'casual' end of the spectrum, but does that matter? Realistically, it's these players that we have always catered to more than others, but isn't this at least partly because Competitive-leaning players are more interested in on-table than off-table? Speaking for myself, I am not rude or unsociable in games, though I'm not always going to become your best friend either...does this meet the definition of Sportsmanship these respondents imagine? Well, we would need to ask their opinion on that - and that is simply too large an undertaking for my blog, and impossible for any larger blog - too much confirmation bias, methinks.
Could a blog network do it? Well, no, not really. BoLS Alliance is tied to BoLS, and at risk of the same confirmation bias. FTW, great as it is, is MUCH more 'Hobbyist' than 'Competitor' focused (whatever THAT means) and would never see balance either. Heresy Online? Much better balance of potential people, but is it large enough without falling back on the Forum? House of Paincakes? No - too fledgling, and not big enough. Librarium Online? Well, I admit not knowing too much about their network - but I spend a lot of time on the blogosphere, and don't know much about it, so...odds are it wouldn't generate enough 'buzz' to get a decent number of respondents. Frankly, I don't see any realistic way to do it, especially given exit polls at events are as unreliable as election exit polls, at best - and because people often attend multiple events and therefore can vote multiple times.
Without a universal standard to fall back on then, how can we best define what is, and is not 'Sportsmanship'?
I think the best way is the simplest - 'Not Being A Dick.'
Not cheating, not moaning about the opponent, their playstyle, their list or bemoaning your luck in a bad-natured way, as though it were somehow the opponent's fault. If you don't do those things, I'll probably get along with you, and, where relevant, tick the 'would play again' box. If you're a shit player (like, really shit, like, playing you is neither any form of challenge or fun) then I probably won't...but that won't be because of your sportsmanship. Really, probably the biggest compliment is that you WANT to play someone again, you want to, simply, spend more time in their company, over a shared interest.
Now that that digression is largely settled...
These figures are all very well, and very interesting in telling us what the people THINK they want, but, as we've seen many times before, people don't always want what they think they want (and don't even always know what that is!)
Going by the information provided* by MKerr regarding WargamesCon 2010 - "Players in the top 10 averaged a 7.0 Sportsmanship score for the entire event (out of a maximum of 8). The average for every player was 7.2."
We find from this that the Sportsmanship score actually had virtually no bearing on the results. Sure, the range isn't fully explored here, and 31% of statistics can be used to prove 10% of 'facts' 93% of the time, BUT - the implication is very clear - either the people who Sportsmanship Scores are here to harm don't go to tournaments, or they just aren't that common after all. Either way, what's the relevance of the score?
If people want this entirely subjective facet of life (not the Hobby, please...Not Being A Dick is nothing to do with GW or 40k, it is a basic requirement of civilized society) to be scored in their events (as, apparently, they do) then there has to be some sort of way for this to make sense - some way for the score to MEAN something, as it seems not to have at WarGamesCon. Before we go any further - this isn't in any way an attack on the people who voted, attended, ran, worked at/on, or had wet dreams about either of these events. Well, maybe the latter. That should be clear, but this is the internet - putting the mis in misunderstanding, since 1993.
Moving on...
The NOVA Open used a different method again. This time, you were to score each of your opponents, depending on how much you enjoyed the game, from most to least. There was not any implication that 'least' meant you didn't enjoy the game, but, sadly, that's the way the human brain works. For some reason, we always associate 'liked least' with 'didn't like' - and so this system seems to have been fairly misunderstood. I don't think this is Mike's fault, but it doesn't matter, really. If people don't properly understand the system, then they won't implement it properly - if they don't do this, then it is failing to do its job, to an extent.
Stelek's system suffers from a similar flaw. Again, I get the system fine (or so I think), but for clarity - correct me if I'm wrong Stelek - everyone gets one 'White Pearl' they MUST award, to a Day 1 opponent, for the 'Best Sport' they played that day. (Yes, I can see this often going to the last guy as the most fresh in their mind. If everyone does this, no foul, but BIG problem...) Everyone also gets one 'Black Pearl' that they MAY award to a 'Bad Sport' they faced. It is by no means compulsory, but that doesn't mean there might not be a perception that they should use it (also on Day 1)
Is it even necessary though?
Do we need ANY sort of Sportsmanship Scoring system?
My own experience of GW events tells me that it doesn't even matter. Cheaters gonna cheat, and likely do it in ways that don't get noticed by their opponents, because they aren't familiar enough to recognise it as cheating - or perhaps the cheaters are buddies with the TO...maybe even GW STAFF who are off that weekend. Jerks are going to be jerks whatever 'system' is in place to try and remove them from games/events, and no amount of bans is likely to change that. Chipmunkers will still exist, in traditional 1-10 points systems without checklists, and I've never seen a remotely decent checklist, excepting one a while ago by the Hod that approached fine, but really still left something to be desired (as I recall...) - Checklists are too rigid, pure subjectivity to prone to bias, chipmunking, social engineering and other 'gaming the system' techniques. IF we are to grade Sportsmanship, surely it needs to be in as unobtrusive a way as possible, as irrelevant to anything else?
If, in a NOVA system, two players had equal Battle Scores and equal Paint Scores (somehow) then winning Renaissance Man through Sportsmanship is, essentially, Mike turning round and saying "Hey, well, unlucky there man, you equalled this other dude's Paint and Battle scores, but, essentially - he's a better human being than you, and so, he gets the prize. Sorry about that." [Note to self, examples are more real with names...]
It doesn't matter if that's the truth (better person part) because that is what that boils down to - and it's not any different for other events, except that NOVA puts far more emphasis on the non-gaming aspects of the Hobby than any other event I am aware of, and as the shining beacon for non-Competitive access to Vegas (yeeeow!) it is the standard bearer (or should be!) for the proud Hobbyist wanting a chance at a big prize - and being a 'better person' or simply 'more popular' is NOT my idea of a good way to decide things.
To finish - I ask again, do we even NEED a Sportsmanship Score at all? As a separate award, divorced from anything else, sure, it's nice to have I suppose - but, a really nice person would just refuse the prize, no? Well, that's a little tongue-in-cheek, but even so. I shall finish with another statistic from Adepticon - when asked "I feel that cheating (rules abuse, abuse of soft scoring, weighted dice, etc) is rampant within the Warhammer 40K tournament community and something needs to be done to remedy it." a staggering 55% of respondents disagreed. Remember, these are the same people who voted for the Sportsmanship Scoring to stay, in such great numbers. You can argue that these are precisely the people who often don't know the rules inside-out, and so could be getting cheated all the time, by accident or design, and just don't know - but in an event which deems itself uncompetitive (unless I misunderstand [and 'event' as in the Team Tournament, as opposed to 'Event' like Adepticon itself] ) does this matter? As long as they have fun? If no-one knows (ie, no malice involved) then I would argue 'not necessarily', and possibly even a definitive 'no' on the issue.
I digressed (again) sorry. The point is, the majority of these self-same people don't think that cheating is a big deal - why then, do THEY think we need Sportsmanship? I would contest it may be just because they are used to it. They are told they need it, and continue the cycle, like the Australians with Comp. Like we Brits and playing 1500. (Silence Tasty!) I think the very question of whether or not it is a valuable, relevant part of our Hobby needs to be addressed - and, well. It's for the TOs to determine how to continue with that information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* - I don't think I actually got any info that made it into this article from the linked article. However, this was a neat little article, and if the series were fleshed out would doubtless be a compelling read, for the statistically minded in particular. The info was from Chainfist, though I don't recall exactly where (or maybe I preferred not to link the specific article...)
9 comments:
Here is the thing. You are paying money and allocating time to go to a tournament. I think the majority of us would like to have enjoyable games with fun opponents. That's not asking too much and it doesn't mean an event is non competitive if the TOs promote this type of environment. The US Ard Boyz is a total mess... You can unfortunately expect to experience lots of cheating because there is no check and balance in place to curb it plus the rounds are typically run by store personnel who don't understand the rules or possibly even care. Sportsmanship can change the way people act. I can tell you as a matter of fact there are many WAAC gamers that to score every possible point and will behave better as a result of wanting to claim these soft points. Basically what you really want is twofold: curb terrible behavior and prevent cheating. To me it's always been a myth that soft scores make a tournament non competitive and as a TO I have never seen anyone place higher than those that scored the most hard points due to their soft scores. Sportsmanship should be used a deterrent and not count for a high percentage of points in the overall score. Really it is up to both the TOs and players to police the games. If someone is caught cheating/pulling shady moves then give a first warning and it occurs again then DQ the player. It's just that simple too but unfortunately a lot of people don't have the balls to stand up for themselves and call a judge over to intervene. When I run an event everyone is told up front in clear and simple to understand language that cheating will not be tolerated, and that the judges are always watching. I grill all my judges prior to an event on what I expect from them and then make them repeat it all back to me to make sure they understand.
G
That's definitely something to think about.
Sportsmanship should be a requirement for playing in the event, like having an army list or 3 colors on your models. Make that an expectation and people are more likely to follow it.
What really needs to change is the "fear" of calling over a judge for rules questions or if your opponent is being a dick without fear of unjust reprisal in the form of chipmunking
I'm of the opinion that it's not really needed.
I've played a few tournaments in my time and I have yet to come across any proper douchebags. There has been two players I didn't care for, but not to the point where it was an actual problem.
At my club's tournaments they have a yellow/red card system, but as of yet I don't think anyone has even received a yellow card for sportsmanship related issues.
I would be more in favour of a simple system of warnings and ousting myself. Thanks for the responses, especially your essay BBF.
Once I get some more opinions I will do a follow-up.
I also think that sportsmanship scores are not really needed. Having been to a number of tournaments (including ard boyz) I have not often had a problem with another player that we could not resolve amicably. Also, I don't think sportsmanship scores curb cheating, if anything they make it easier, as the person who suspects cheating now might get dinged for calling out the cheater, and thus might let it go. Also, if sportsmanship has no bearing at all ( as several people have mentioned) then why put in the effort to come up with a system. I feel that sportsmanship would benefit more greatly from, better more present judges, than scores filled out and totaled into winning the tournament. I would agree with those who think a system of warnings and oustings as well. If a player is really being enough of a douche to have a need for sportsmanship scores, than he/she is being enough of a douche to get kicked to the curb.
BBF - "To me it's always been a myth that soft scores make a tournament non competitive and as a TO I have never seen anyone place higher than those that scored the most hard points due to their soft scores."
http://www.bolterbeach.com/?page_id=199
This was an event you recently ran. If you look at your rankings (everything isn't listed in order there) for example:
Rob Carr and Teddy Woody; Rob had fewer Battle Points (hard points) by 10 and yet managed to score 30 points higher overall due to the Comp system.
Joe Yerger (myself) and Mason Martindale; I scored 20 more Battle Points than Mason yet he scored 5 points over me as an overall due to Comp.
Aaron Hagney and Chris Anderson; Both scored the same in Battle points yet Aaron scored higher overall due to Comp.
Dan Harris and Kurt Williams; Kurt had 45 more Battle Points than Dan yet they scored the same Overall due to Sportsmanship and Comp.
Jerry Ashcroft and Gabe Dobkins; They had a 2 point spread through Battle Points and ended with a 2 point spread as their Sports and Comp differences balanced out across everything.
At Bolter Beach, Sportsmanship wasn't an issue in the process nor greatly varying in the scoring (as shown by the score listing), and for the future event (January 2011; Sarasota, FL) Comp has been removed (thank you). I just wanted to show that soft scores do affect overall rankings, even in your own events. Granted it didn't affect the top few places, but total rankings for many folks.
Bolter Beach: It was a fun event, it was competitive (I had a very close game with Marc Paker round 4 that went down to the wire and with the game continuing into extra rounds caused the balance of victory to shift, probably my favorite game of the event.) I strongly encourage anyone who will be in the area (great beaches in Sarasota, come escape from your snowy winter blues in Florida) to come attend. I plan on coming again.
My personal thoughts as a TO as well in regards to Sportsmanship:
We are all adults. We should act like adults. There is no real reason to act a fool and whine or raise a fuss over a game of little green army men.
That being said, Sportsmanship scoring does have a place in Competitive events because you will have that 1% who are total D-bags. My best feel for sportsmanship is similar to Steleks except my does not reward good/decent behavior (which is to be expected from all rational, adults over the physical age of 6) but only punishes bad behavior.
Have everyone score a 0 for Sportsmanship, that is the best anyone can hope for. When there is a legitimate sportsmanship problem and is verified or addressed by the TO/Judge then that player receives -5 points, charged by the TO/Judge. If there are further infractions (perhaps a 3 strike rule) additional points could be deducted or the person disqualified.
I always hate the Sportsmanship mentality that if you bring snacks, drinks, give your opponent a foot massage while playing that you are a better sportsman than the guy who came, was friendly, had a reasonable conversation with his opponent while playing and just was a responsible adult.
Good Sportsmanship should be expected and the rule not the exception.
Good feedback, thanks! Keep it coming, community! :p
@BBF: Return key mother-fucker.
'At my club's tournaments they have a yellow/red card system, but as of yet I don't think anyone has even received a yellow card for sportsmanship related issues.'
This is what we have. We had 90 people playing at Warpcon and 1 got kicked out for trying to change his army list between games. That was it.
Keeping the opportunity to politicise scores will ironically lead to bad sportsmanship as people inevitably vote for their buddies.
I need a demotivator for irony...
'Good Sportsmanship should be expected and the rule not the exception.'
QFT.
There's also less homework for the judges.
Post a Comment