While we’re here…
Let’s talk about new opponents. What do you do if an opponent you’ve never played cheats?
Examples -
Moving before making a MTC roll. Cheating.
Making a Scout move AFTER we seize the Initiative. Cheating.
Not declaring Reserves. Cheating.
Not declaring methods of Insertion for above. Cheating.
Putting Terminators in a Drop Pod. Facepalm.
Using the Quickening in my turn. Cheating.
Applying above’s effects in my turn after using in yours. Cheating.
Not allocating wounds BEFORE rolls. Cheating.
Assaulting though bases. Cheating.
Moving a Running model before rolling the dice. Cheating.
Sliding a Vindicator 1” across to claim cover when not looking? Mega Cheating.
What are all your opinions of these, and how best to deal with them? After I hear from, I don't know 8 or so of you, then I will tell you what I did.
23 comments:
Ok first of all, you CAN have Terminators in a Drop Pod.
But only if they're an IC attached to the owning unit :P
Anyway, for most of those:
With a new player, I'd remind them, and wait patiently until they do it. (or not do it)
If they don't do it, I'd start changing my tone a little, to stress my point.
If they still don't do it, I get frustrated, raise my voice a little, and talk through it step by step.
If they're honestly too stupid to understand, I whip out the Rulebook and do it FOR them.
For not new players.
I remind them.
I remind them a second time, slightly louder.
I start saying "Stop fucking trying to cheat."
Then I start yelling at them.
I tend to be fairly lenient if people merely forget.
For example, if someone says "It's in reserves." and doesn't specify what kind, rules-wise that means board edge reserves, but I clear things up before the game actually starts.
If someone rolls their dice and removes 3+'s when they're hitting on 4+ (for example), I go dude, stop, you're hitting on 4+, remember?
And more often than not I've counted how many they've done wrong.
People tend to listen to me about how many, but if I get confused it's usually only 1 off or so.
So, King, what did you do?
Some of the things listed I have seen people do but I wouldnt call it cheating. I would call it making a mistake or ill-informed.
Moving before making a MTC roll. Ill-informed.
Making a Scout move AFTER we seize the Initiative. Mistake.
Not declaring Reserves. Mistake.
Not declaring methods of Insertion for above. Didnt read 5th edition.
Putting Terminators in a Drop Pod. Didnt read.
Using the Quickening in my turn. Read it wrong.
Cheating is a huge accusation to do and some people take it personally. The rest is some sort of cheating or another though mostly minor.
But phantom wargear: Cheating
Adding extra attacks: Cheating
I'm seconding Winterous' method
Pretty much what Winterous said. Make sure they know what's wrong and let them correct it, no judgments. If they persist, keep calling them on it. Whip out the book if necessary.
But calling somebody a cheater because they forgot to declare reserves isn't gonna end well.
I shall clarify the MTC roll by saying that, he moved them 6", then rolled a 3,4,1 - giving them a 4" move, and put only two of the models back where they should have been. It had no real impact upon the game, and was also the Scout move. I'll await a couple more responses, but thanks so far.
I think in some cases it's the other person's responsibility as well, and realize this is just a game. It's also dependent on the situation. Who is the opponent? A kid? An adult? Someone experienced? Someone new? Someone coming back to the game and not up to date on 5th?
Beyond that, things happen. People forget. It sounds more like the guy you were playing wasn't sure on what was going on as much. Maybe he was new to the game, or the way he'd been playing was wrong.
That's something I've seen before with other games. People learn from someone, and they play, have fun, yay! But they aren't playing by the rules. But since that's the way the person learned, well, he doesn't know better.
It's easy to lay out a list with no context. As it stands, that list, with no context, tells me I have a new person who doesn't understand Force Composition, and doesn't have a firm grasp of the rules or etiquette, and I should spend some time helping them learn.
I think Winterous pretty much got it.
If it looks like an honest mistake the first time, then I'll remind them. If they keep doing it, and I keep having to remind them, I'm gonna get annoyed.
I usually make a point out of asking for the reserves stuff, so we're clear on it.
If it's a tournament, then I'm going to be a bit stricter; I had someone 'run' a Carnifex without measuring inches, so I was like "...I don't think that's [X] inches."
For the every now and then someone fails to allocate wounds, I just have them dice off on which guys would've gotten removed, if possible. I mean, three guys, one distinct? Randomize it; 1-2 is the odd man out, 3-6 isn't. Still, I'd rather folks get used to allocating wounds and the like. Maybe it's playing a Seer Council that's given me practice in it.
Some of that could very well be due to not reading the rules enough, but it could also be an issue of being a jerk and trying to cheat. I mean, the whole 'moving vehicle to get cover' when I'm not looking? I will take exception to that, no ifs/ands/buts.
If I get the idea they're cheating, and cheating badly, I'll probably point it out. I've still had some people do some weird shit with dice (Ok, I need to roll one dice, but I'm going to roll one black and two red, and the one we're looking at is black) that makes me scratch my head.
Though with any dice things, I think a basic rule of thumb is "If you're doing it 'because it rolls better' you should probably just stop."
End of it, I think most of the things you listed could be put down to a mistake, once. More than that? Something to look at in depth. I don't think I'd out-and-out accuse someone of cheating without being sure about it.
I inform them that their behavior is contrary to the rules, usually with something like, "You're supposed to roll MTC before you move the models - I forget that one two, sometimes." Or "Oh, you forgot to Scout before attempting to Sieze the Initiative? You're welcomed to Scout now and reroll the Seize roll." Or "You accidentally nudged that Vehicle over while I was asking your mom to quit touching my posterior."
Or "That's not a legal assault; you can't move through bases in 5e."
Overall, yelling never really helps stop cheating, and will help you to lose sympathy with the TO and/or judge, which might matter.
I particularly enjoyed that 'your mom' one, nicely done. Slight clarification: The Seizing was done by me, his Scouts. By re-rolling it I disadvantaged myself further (that's not what happened).
Two more replies and I'll tell you what I did.
>.<
Goal reached!
Yeah, two more ACTUAL replies, Robert. :P
:3
(I really have no idea because I don't actually know the rules that well, I havn't played 5th ed. But...)
If someone is fracturing the rules a bit to gain an advantage, then that is not the same as forgetting or over looking something. Moves and rolls should only be made when they are being obvserved, IMHO. Similarly, if I forget things like using any psychic powers at all with my seer council because I've been distracted by my wife then not mentioning it may give the deathwing the win, but is pretty poor form.
So, another answer TKE.
Depends on my opponent really. I don't play that much so most of my games are against friends in a casual setting.
Translation: I let most of it slide.
But, in the event I'm playing someone else, I hold them pretty close to the rules and I'll usually make a spectalce when it does happen.
I'm guessing you had a tough game recently?
I think you should pull them up about it. Admitly I've done the armour saves before allocating wounds, but I don't do this intentionaly and just go with it.
I think you have to be careful before you accuse anyone of cheating. An experienced player cheating can look indistinguishable from a new player who doesn't know the rules, or a 4th ed player getting his first game of 5th. If you don't know the person, how do you know which is which?
Don't forget confirmation bias, as well. We interpret what we see to reinforce what we already believe to be true.
Goal met! Give us what we've all been waiting for. What did you do?
When I played Jwolf he was totally cheating by trying to show me nekkid pictures of Fritz's mom while I was trying to make my moves. Yelling only made him sorta get a glazed over look in his eye then he went to the bathroom. Strange. Any way, most of what he did sounds like errors. I make em all the time and am happy when people point them out to me. Especially after I played a lot of games in a row! At Bolscon my last opponent was basicly playing my army for me cause I was burned out.
So?
Our local gaming group basically consists of people I have taught to play 40k and me. So, I have spent most games teaching the rules. And the rest of the games I spent correcting mistakes and answering rules questions.
I am happy to report that most of our guys have now "learned" the rules, meaning they have a fine working knowledge.
I forgot to post this previously:
I said all that above in order to say that 40k is a massive set of rules that are particularly detailed. It is easy to forget some of the finer details.
You really need to know if someone is intentionally trying to gain an advantage before you declare them a cheater.
But, I suspect that you are a wise enough gentleman to know the difference between someone making a mistake and someone intentionally cheating.
If that was all one game then I'd have started off assuming he was having a bad day and remind him of the rules as and when necessary - but the further in it went I'd have been asking him to reroll dice if necessary telling him you can't assault through bases and if I'd seen him move the Vindicator then asked him to move it back - if he'd said no then I'd have told him that the game was his and pick up my army whilst letting everybody round about know why. Mistakes I can forgive, and understand I make enough of them myself but once you get past a certain point then the person is either very stupid or doing it deliberately and I really don't want to waste my time with stupid people or cheats.
It's all a matter of consistency. If a relatively experienced player does something like forget to declare how Reserves are coming in or little things - I let it slide once or twice with maybe a slap on the wrist. We all make mistakes.
However, if it continues to persist to the fourth or fifth time, then I'll pack up my models and go somewhere else.
If it's a new player, I take the time to teach them or show them in the rulebook where it says you can do this or that. We were all 'noobs' at one point or another - why discourage people from playing an already discouraging (read: expensive) game? Instead, make them feel welcome, take them under your wing (even if it's only for a minute or too) and show'em the ropes. You'll feel much better in the end, imo.
Squirrel_Fish
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