So,
I have defeated the beast that was my UCAS form and am fully focusing on the efforts of the ole ECP. However, I am concurrently helping out at a livery stables and a large vet surgery, so this'll only be a short post before I go off and brush some more horses flanks of mud and straw before I go off and see a piggy with a headcold...I have had a request from someone to push ahead with one or two of the 'necessary' units to play with in the current mechdar army list. (Hopefully, if people actually use this then they won't be such an auto-choose...)
Fire Dragons it was.
There aren't really any totally necessary improvements for these guys and gals - they are already almost the best units in the game at killing vehicles - that many meltaguns hurts like fury. When I play mech IG players, they down my dragon serpents first thing off - almost totally ignoring the other units I have. In Apoc games I've had people take down 5 man squads of Fire Dragons in preference to my Revenant titan - they inspire FEAR in the eyes of everyone.
To begin with, I thought that they didn't need any improvements to statlines, wargear or anything really other than a points adjustment. After much discussion though, some people raised the point that Eldar shouldn't melta in the same way as other races - something I had thought about a while back.... Lets look at the Heat Lance.
Obviously a Melta, but with the added benefit of lanceness - and the higher range.... losing out on some strength though. Meeeh. Tough choice.
With the abilities of the Heat Lance in mind, TKE, AbusePuppy and I had a bit of thinking and we decided on a S6 Ap1 18" Assault 1 Melta. (Pretty much the same thing as a heatlance, minus the lance bit ;) ) Given that two of the Exarch powers are staying the same (Crack Shot and Tank Hunters) it means there is a reason to take both of them. Crack Shot being great as is, but Tank Hunters making them effectively S7 Ap1 18" meltas. As for the last Exarch power, I was having a think and decided on 'Saboteurs' - rerolling to hit with meltabombs vs Vehicles and Walkers - kinda makes sense if you ask me.
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| Raiders of the Blood Serpent |
Now we've gone and beefed (nerfed?) up the Powers slightly, the Exarchs' weaponry needs a look at. As it stands, the Firepike is great, but a bit lacking when compared to how they are in the fluff, so, bearing that in mind, I made it a giant Heat Lance - S8 Ap1 18" Lance Melta. for + 8pts on the original cost. Also, the Dragon's Breath Flamer - it needs an upgrade to reflect how badass Exarchs really are... But not too much of one...
This was a tough choice but I decided on S6 ap4 Template. Originally, I had it as rending, but TKE said it seemed redundant... Whatever boss *cowers*
So, bearing all those things in mind.... Here's the PreAlpha Unit Entry:
Unit Profile
Edit: An Alternative profile that sticks closer to the current style entry I came up with looks like this:
Unit Profile alternative
Any feedback, comments, criticisms, cuddles or kisses?
15 comments:
I actually agree with the changes to the fusion gun and think you've balanced of the increased range with the decrease in overall strength.
I think the way the squad size should be written up is "4 Fire Dragons and 1 Exarch for 100pts with a maximum 5 additional Fire Dragon added at 17pts each" (Re Space Marine Tactical Squad)if the Exarch is a must anyway, I don't see the point in writing an additional +15pts for Exarch - I know this is knit-picky, but I think it would look better.
Exarch Powers look good, glad you've kept Crack Shot and Tank Hunters, I really like the idea of the re-roll to hit in combat v vehicles/walkers. The Corruscation power I think would be stepping on Doom's toes to much, unless it's vehicles only? It's not totally clear.
Overall I really like the changes! keep up the awesome work.
P.S. we have two horses so I feel for ya, especially when it's cold/snowy!
I agree with Embolden that formulating squad size like tactical squads would be better.
As regards the Fire Dragons thenselves, at first I was sceptical of the change to the fusion gun, believing that their lethality is just. However, the weapon as you've designed it does come across as a more elegant and refined weapon than what the mon-keigh use. That certainly does seem to fit, so I like it.
The only thing I don't like is the name of the saboteur power. The power itself is good, but the name doesn't befit the Fire Dragons' spirit.
*Ahem* I always structured squads like that in our backstage talking. :p
CAN you take multiple powers, Width?
That's actually something I wondered about as well. In the original Dire Avengers draft I recall you could, but now that option seems to have disappeared.
It says you 'must' take 'one' Exarch power from the list of three options.
Exactly.
According to the nature of the fluff, I decided to leave multiple powers to the phoenix lords with the different exarch powers being the differentiation between the various shrines that a craftworld would have.
With regards to cleaning up the entry - I will write the next few as such - it is a relic from my preference to the older book styles.
Thanks for the feedback so far. :)
Limiting exarchs to one power, while making it mandatory, is interesting. If powers are optional and you can buy all of them the choice is whether to take powers at all, and if you do, you probably take all the good powers for good measure. Now the choice is which power to take. That does mean that special effort has to be made to make all powers of roughly equal value, or you'll always see the same power chosen.
To be honest I am not a fan of the str 6 shot even at 18 inch range. The reason it works for dark eldar is that it is on a unit that can deepstrike, and also is jump infantry. So lower strength to compensate for the 30 inch actual range of the weapon.
For foot slogging Firedragons, and or being in a serpant that can't move 12 and shoot everything open topped vehicle w/ assault weapons inside.
I think the actual use of str 6 on them has failed.
I don't forsee this as being good for this unit when they are only gaining a 3" on their melta range.
I am uncertain if you have played with Nids, and run MC lists. Str 6 even with 4 attacks that at times can auto hit.. average rolls means you fail to pen a land raider.
Fire dragons average rolls now penetrate land raiders in Melta Range. ON top of that... I wouldn't be getting my unit out unless I was close enough to get into melta range.
The str 6 range 18" has made them much more useful as being a heavy troop killer (i.e. terminators), but has reduced the effectiveness of their tank popping abilities. Even with the range increase.
Firedragons are one of the units in the eldar codex that are strong stand alone. with what you are changing they would then need the assistance of warlocks and farseers to be effective against strong armor like soul grinders, Leman Russ, and land raiders.
In your revamp I like the idea and usefullness of the warlocks and their powers... however not every unit is going to be able to have a dedicated warlock, or farseer to assist them. especially if you want to take avatar or a Pheonix Lord as an HQ.
If you are going to change them keep them 18" range, w/ Str 8.
-Even increase their cost a bit. that would be fair.
However I think your changes here are actually neutering them.
Again keep in mind the range of Scourges on the ground is 12 + 18" of the gun. Effective 21" melta range. Also can deepstrike.
Your firedragons don't even compare in my opinion based on what all dark eldar have to use in comparison.
18" meltaguns? Most armies would commit murder for that. That may be a nice price increase.
Besides, Fire Dragons can outrange Scourges. They also move 12" and then have over 2" disembarkation on top of that. Sure, if they're on foot they're slower, but that's what they're infantry for, instead of jump infantry.
If your argument regarding Scourges flies, my Grey Hunters also want 18" meltaguns.
It's not a normal Meltagun at 18".
It's a str 6 gun with melta, not Str 8.
Makes your Average roll a 13, rather then 15 on armor penetration.
There is a HUGE difference in what you are stating.
Yes most armies would kill for a 18" range Str 8 (Not str 6) meltagun which makes that extremely useful.
I wouldn't kill for a str 6 gun.
So far if you look at the overall revamp on this Fandex. Most of our units are not getting better or slightly buffed, or just reduced in cost.
Most are being Neutered, to then become a little bit cheaper.
Exarchs are a must - Good
-2/3 exarch powers and can only choose 1 > terrible idea. leave 3 options each can be purchased if necessary.
-While Eldar are a Strong "Synergy" style army, they shouldn't need crutches w/o having a warlock or farseer to make them beneficial (by adding rending)
-We have reduces ranges on Missile Launchers by 12"
-We do not have Actual Meltaguns in the army except for on the Firedragon exarch which has 1 str 8 melta that is lance. However it is 1 save away from losing this weapon.
The combines effects is actually weakening our army so far.
Remember Str 6 at 18" range still has to roll a 5 just to glance a Rhino, and a 6 to pen.
So at lnoger ranges we can make an attempt at shooting... Or we could just use what we have always used at those ranges anyways > Missile launchers/scatterlasers.
So the change to firedragons really isn't a benefit except killing heavy troops. I prefer their role as being Vehicle Destruction primarily.
~Lackeylsk
A short post for now. Keep in mind that while the average penetration roll with S6 is lower, where most armies will fire a couple of meltaguns, Fire Dragons fire at least five of them - probably either with Tank Hunters or ignoring cover saves.
At strength 6 - Tank Hunters will be a must take for these Fire Dragons.
Be warned. Long post:
Christopher:
The idea behind rewriting this is so that there are no autochooses for any slot - each unit having it's own benefits, caveats and neat little tricks. By slightly 'nerfing' the meltagun as we have decided to do here, it means that yes, they are marginally less effective vs Heavy armour - There are other tools in the set to deal with Av14 bricks.
With regards to Exarch powers, the idea is to create divergent purposes for the squad - each ensuring that a vehicle *will* die somehow. S6 vs AV11 - without cover saves, the Rhino/Razor will die. S7 vs AV11 - ouch, these are Ap1 autocannons. Rerollable meltabombs - ever despaired at being unable to kill valkys...? Each power is a significant advantage, but hopefully at a level that means deliberation must be made. S7 meltas are great, but taking that over denying cover saves for any targets or rerolling to hit vs walkers...? Your choice.
S8 18" meltas are totally out of the question - only an Exarch or Phoenix Lord should have access to that kind of weaponry.
Also, Scourges are totally different in purpose to Fire Dragons - one is harassment/ flanking, the other is a purpose-built anti-heavy infantry/ Vehicle unit.
You do have to bear in mind the fact that DE are very fragile. Very. Even with power from pain, they will die very happily to bolters - literally almost the whole Kabalite and Wych sections of the army will die in droves.
With regards to Phoenix Lords and synergy - Phoenix Lords are in early plans at the moment, but they will radically change the makeup of an army if the plans work as we intend them to.
Araith's point RE multiple meltas is true though - they will be firing 4-12 at a vehicle depending on squad size.
Embolden - precisely the point behind the points choice. :)
I wasn't really leaning towards the 18" range Meltaguns.
What I was saying.. by all standards, and Fluff. Which is what the codex in any regard should try to take into account first.
IF there is armor to be dealt with... FireDragons are the Go to Guys.
There are others that can do it. But that is their specialty.
While I understand your concept of balance. Eldar are not a Balanced per unit army. Never have and shouldn't be.
They are a highly specialized army in which each unit is by their own accord "The best there is.. the best there was... and the best there ever will be" in the roles in which they are designed for. That is what Aspect Warriors are through and through.
That is the difference. The changes don't reflect that.
I like your Dire Avenger Changes, I like the Guardian Changes.
I dislike the thought of Trying to nerf Firedragons to make our Elite slot more balanced... and removing the only real Melta Guns we have in the game.
The reason we have a unit of them is to also counter the Balance that Marines can have atleast 1-3 in every unit when you count melta, Combi, and Multimelta's.
Dropping our's down to Str 6 makes them a much less threat for anyone.
~Lackeylsk
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